Tuesday, June 01, 2010

Interesting Vote Kick Changes

Zarhym posts:

We have found that most players using the Dungeon Finder don’t use the Vote Kick feature or abandon groups very often. For these players, we are removing the cooldown on voting to kick players from a dungeon party. In contrast, those players who tend to kick players or abandon groups more frequently will notice that the Vote Kick feature maintains its cooldown. The goal here is to make sure players who are generally patient can make use of the Vote Kick feature when they really need it, without giving a more powerful tool to those who try to kick others or abandon dungeon groups very frequently.

This functionality will adjust itself as a player’s behavior while using the Dungeon Finder changes.

This is a really intriguing change. In many ways, it's the first stab in WoW at using a player's past behavior to control the powers available to her.

There's an awful lot of functionality that would be really nice to have, but you can't include in the game because a very small minority would abuse it. Right now, if you can't give something to everyone, you can't give it to anyone.

I think the concept of identifying who exactly that small minority is, and depriving them of those powerful abilities might do a world of good in keeping the community on the straight and narrow.

I wonder if we might end up seeing things like this in world PvP systems, to moderate the corpse campers and gankers.

Oh, and for those people complaining that they "need" to be able to vote-kick freely because all their PuGs are terrible, I've done 40 levels with my lowbie warrior tank in the Dungeon Finder and have only ever kicked one player. Maybe you should look in a mirror for the source of all your troubles.

25 comments:

Spinks said...

I thought this looked really interesting too. I also wonder if they'll track people by account (i.e. kicks across alts as well as on the character you are currently playing.)

Syrien said...

I think it is a great change.

After reading the comments on the official forum, I see several mentioning people going afk in what seems like a kind of old school AV leeching style. Is this common? Makes me wish they would make the game make you afk from inactivity faster when in an instance, and then not give you xp/loot while afk.

Rhii said...

I'm not sure about it, honestly. I'm going to step up and admit to being a frequent kicker. And I'd like to keep the ability to kick frequently. However, having scutinized my mirror thoroughly, I can still claim the vast majority of the people I kick are kicked for being either offline or prolonged afk.

>_<

In a situation where I feel that I MUST be separated from a particular individual, I'm far more likely to leave than to kick... I punish myself by that choice already with the deserter debuff, removing kicking privileges for it seems like overkill.

Ngita said...

[quote]
Maybe you should look in a mirror for the source of all your troubles. [/quote]

Seriously?

UK normal. We zone in, first tank pulls the first 2 mobs "I have to go" and logs out, he does not leave group.
Vote comes up and I did not vote as he was removed, second tank, sorry phone, We clear trash slowly 10 minutes goes past including a wipe and as we run back past the afk we discuss booting him. I try, Sorry you can not boot them as you have done it too many times recently - I didnt even vote to remove the first guy, so we keep on clearing and after 15 minutes afk he finally comes back and say sorry phone.

I have had dps just stand at zone in for 15 minutes, I have had a tank activly trying to pull mobs and then teleport out to try and kill us.

But overall I have booted a LOT of people and every single one of them was dc'ed, afk or activily being stupid - md'ing to healer etc.

Hagu said...

I hope for something similar for BGs. Early morning (PDT) maybe 30% of the people in BGs from KT/nightfall/US are at least AFK if not bots. Many of the bots have been reported by multiple players for months. Some I know were AFK kicked from several BGs in a night.

You don't want to allow griefing and everyone gets a phone call at some point. But some are clearly abusing and Blizzard could do better.

Kring said...

> In contrast, those players who tend to kick players or abandon groups
> more frequently will notice that the Vote Kick feature maintains its
> cooldown.

Regulating the power to kick with how often you kick is intersting.
But coupling it with how often you abandon a group is terrible.
Abandoning a group has nothing to do with abusing the power the kick
option gives you. Regulating the power to kick with how often you
abandon a group is unacceptable. You are being punished for not behaving
like Blizzard wants you to behave.

It's another piece of their forcing you to play a part of the game you
don't like.

First there were

- PvP rewards which are better for PvE.
- PvE rewards which are better for PvP.
- PvE meta achievements which forced you to PvP (long strange trip).

Then they went a step further and

- reward you for doing something you don't like. (They added a chance at a drake to Oculus.)

Now they start to punish you at will for not behaving

- and remove your ability to kick if you abandon group to often. Dropping out of Oculus, because you don't enjoy the instance, will now not allow you to initiate a kick for the afk person in Stratholme.

What's next? Not allowing people to use the gryphon system or interact with a bank or AH NPC while under the effect of the deserter/quitter debuff? Not offering you the daily heroic if you didn't complete the daily random BG in the last 4 days?

They would better invest their time in making the game fun to play and offering you a game you can play the way you want. Instead of thinking of new carrots and sticks.

Redbeard said...

I don't think I've ever voted to kick someone due to bad behavior; somebody else gets to them before me.

Typically when I vote to kick it's due to technical issues, such as a disconnect.

In that respect, I'm fine with the new rules.

Leah said...

as long as that system doesn't count vote kicking DCed persons against you? I'm all for it.

becasue 90% of all my votekicks (whether I've initiated them or clicked yes to someone) are just that - replacing a person who has DCed.

Mingdi said...

@Kring

Both vote kicking people and abandoning groups are signs that the player cannot get along with his group, so the assumption is that if you do it too often, the problem lies with you and not the group itself.

The reason Blizzard doesn't give a crap about you dropping a group because you don't want to do that particular instance is simple: because those two Frost Emblems are not a right, but a REWARD for doing a randomly chosen instance. By queuing up for a random dungeon, you are saying "I am willing to run an instance I might not particularly want to do for two Emblems of Frost." Keep in mind, it's not a reward for pugging, as you can queue up with a premade group. It is only a reward for doing a completely random instance, and, as blues on the forum have pointed out before, if you try to exclude an instance, suddenly it is no longer random.

Darthregis said...

"Maybe you should look in a mirror for the source of all your troubles."

I LoL'ed. :) Well said!

I think I've been involved with 3 vote kicks since it was first implemented. Don't remember the first one all that well, second was blatant racism and racist slang, and third was a guy being a jerkwad about not getting heals despite standing in fire.

I think the fact that they're tracking this stuff will definitely help improve the system. Help prevent people from abusing it and still have it readily available for those times you need it.

Kring said...

There is a 30 min timer which ensures that you cannot drop group and queue again instantaneously until you get the instance you like. That's fine.

But removing you the power to kick people just because you refuse to run a randoim dungeon which isn't fun to you? Do you think that's really justified as people who leave groups will probably abuse the power to kick? Or do you think it's justified because it punihsed people who behave in a way you don't like?


And what do you expect will happen?
1. People will stop dropping out because they don't want to loose their power to kick.
2. People will not care about this side effect.
3. People who used to drop out of dungeons will stop running random heroics because they are fed up. That probably mostly effects tanks and will make them even more scarce.

I assume it'll be 2 and maybe 3.

Klepsacovic said...

I'd just like it if kicking someone offline for more than a few minutes didn't use up a vote.

Xbalanque said...

@Kring:

They won't be removing your power to votekick people if you drop too often -- they'll just make you have to wait the same amount between votekicks that you currently do, instead of letting you have no cooldown or a reduced one.

Any tanks who this removes from the system are tanks I'd prefer to not to run with, so I am not at all worried about 3. And honestly, folks who drop in a huff for no good reason (and disliking a given instance when you selected "random" is *not* a good reason) *are* just as much of a problem as folks who are intentional deadweight or who try to kick over trivial matters. That's why those folks will have the current cooldown.

Basically, the worst case scenario for someone is that things stay exactly the same as they are right now. How can anyone possibly rationally object to this?

NaturalGamerGirl said...

My question is... how will this actually change anything?

My understanding is that the power is given dynamically, based on your recent actions. I see that they are trying to reward those who responsibly kick. So you give people who do not kick often the ability to kick more often. Then if they use this ability (either for good or for bad), won't it just be taken away (as they are now initiating kicks more frequently)? I guess it depends on how long of a period they will evalute behavior.

It would be nice if they could distinguish AFK and Offline kicks from other types of kicks. Kind of like reporting someone for being AFK in a BG. Maybe a box will pop up that they need to click within a certain period of time or else they will be removed (at no consequence to the initiator). I understand this system could also be abused by ill-natured people, but tbh those types of people will always find a way.

Kring said...

> And honestly, folks who drop in a
> huff for no good reason *are* just
> as much of a problem as folks who
> are intentional deadweight or who
> try to kick over trivial matters.

If you queue up with less than 5 people for a random heroic you agree to get a random group and a random dungeon. You have to accept that other people might play the game differently and for them it might be ok to leave a group if they don't like a dungeon. There is no right answer to the question if it is acceptable to leave a group if you lost interest in finishing the dungeon you got assigned to. There might be one for you but it won't be the same for everyone.

But, neglecting that. My real problem is that the offense (leaving group) is not related to the "protection" (not being able to instantly pull a vote). Therefore it's a punishment, disguised as protection.

Tomasz said...

The problem with terrible LFD pugs isn't that they make runs fail, it's that they make runs slow. You would have gotten those 40 levels faster if you had consistently used kick votes to replace awful dps.

Basically anyone who isn't pulling their weight should get the boot.

NaturalGamerGirl said...

Kring, are you really having that much trouble with the current system? Because at worst, the system will function like it does right now.

If you abondon groups, you will not lose your ability to initiate kicks, it will just retain the CD that it has currently.


For example, I have a guildie who claims that Occ lags her computer out too bad. Anytime this comes up as her random, she drops group instantly. I have a feeling that even though she has a pattern of dropping groups, she does not do so often enough to have this affect her ability to benefit from the shorter kick CD (which is the proposed reward). But even if it did, she would still have the current ability to kick with the current CD on initiating kicks.

Mingdi said...

@Kring

Basically, there's three reasons to drop group:

1) An emergency comes up or the run takes longer than expected for some reason and you need to go. Blizzard allows for this by allowing you to drop group occasionally.

2) You don't like the instance. Blizzard doesn't care about this at all. In fact, I bet they'll be happy if the new system discourages leaving instances because you don't like them.

3) You don't like the group of people you're with. Again, Blizzard has made allowances, but this is the reason they're targeting. The logic goes that if you're trying to kick people or dropping groups too often, you are probably the problem.

Vanye said...

@NaturalGamerGirl

I can believe her problem exists. My laptop had the same issue when I played on it, before I built my current PC. The ambient light and special effects, especially when one is looking at the central column, just killed my frame rates (dropping from 15-18, to 2.)

Vanye said...

The change I would like to see most is *requiring* a reason for kicking. I've been in a few pugs where people were struggling with their DPS, but still doing sufficient for the heroic, but they got booted. For gods sake, the person in a 2700gs shouldn't be expected to be doing 4k dps, folks. Don't be a dick.

Anonymous said...

The idea for incorporating this into world PvP i do not agree with. If you are going to play on a PvP server you are going to get the benefits and the annoyances that come with it. Maybe if a gladiator was in TM/SS just messing with some lowbies, but if I feel like hopping on my feral and annoying some gold famers... I don't see anything wrong with that seeing as it is a PvP server

NaturalGamerGirl said...

@ Vayne

Thanks for the response about Occ. She is kind of an... odd... player, and has frequent difficulties in game. I was always concerned that she did not understand the dungeon and just refused to learn it! Makes me feel better that her claim might actually be valid.

Rhii said...

@Vanye -

I believe some unitframes (Xperl in particular) block the "reason" box from appearing.

If Blizz could make it more compatible with customized UI's I would always use it. I thought it was a great change to say why you're kicking (AFK or DC will almost certainly be the most frequently cited).

However, if I have to give up my functional unitframes to get it... nope, not gonna do it! :P

Kring said...

The reason functionality is not and was never active on European realms although it was in the patch notes.

Don't know about US realms.

roaot said...

" What's next? Not allowing people to use the gryphon system or interact with a bank or AH NPC while under the effect of the deserter/quitter debuff? "

- Kring


Yanno, actually I could go for something like this. Punish people who abuse systems. If you want people to play "your way" (Blizzards way), you better guide them through the corral like cattle.

But, that little snippet you mentioned is actually a good idea. I can't count how many times I've watched a tank join the group, zone in, and leave. Leaving 4 of us sitting there playing cards.

As far as the change goes, I'm pretty nuetral to it. I've never initiated a vote kick. If a player is a baddie, I try to help him. It's usually faster to help someone than to wait for someone to take his place.