tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post1786072071461340870..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: A Retribution SolutionRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-81996347585178423942008-11-01T00:01:00.000-07:002008-11-01T00:01:00.000-07:00seriouslytoo complexthe much simpler solution is s...seriously<BR/>too complex<BR/><BR/>the much simpler solution is simply put DS outside the burst<BR/><BR/>rather than putting all the abilities in weird setups(like that 3 sec rule) is easier to put just DS in one of those<BR/><BR/>a example would be making DS castable like slam, making it a reactive ability(like sudden death talent from warrior) or anyhing of the like that makes it outside the burst<BR/><BR/>and once its out of the burst it can again become a really damaging abilityAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971215595425327396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-88928454786832622552008-10-30T13:04:00.000-07:002008-10-30T13:04:00.000-07:00The big hits with time in between fits better with...The big hits with time in between fits better with paladins anyway. Like you said, it's time for cleanses and heals and hands and all that. We're still a strong group class because of all our abilities that are beside our main roles of tanking, dps, or healing. Having time to throw cleanses makes us stronger.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-40172805383991280552008-10-30T09:25:00.000-07:002008-10-30T09:25:00.000-07:00The Blizzard solution is the other path, the Death...The Blizzard solution is the other path, the Death Knight solution. Smaller hits, but more of them, with fewer Empty GCDs.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I prefer the big hits style. It seems more appropriate to me for a 2H class. In some ways, the Death Knight feels like a rogue, only with a 2H sword, which seems wrong to me.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-82921316924252965962008-10-30T08:16:00.000-07:002008-10-30T08:16:00.000-07:00Im liking that blizzard idea ;). Considering that...Im liking that blizzard idea ;). Considering that they're murdering the damage we're doing already (i've gone down 200 dps with the most recent changes, with more to come) I'd welcome a lower judgement cooldown to mess with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-54209469240977389832008-10-30T07:59:00.000-07:002008-10-30T07:59:00.000-07:00Blizz seemingly wants to go the other way. Blue po...Blizz seemingly wants to go the other way. Blue post gleaned from MMO Champion:<BR/><BR/><I>Making sure you aren’t waiting too long for cooldowns is something else we’re looking at. For example, we could lower the cooldown and effect of Judgements just so you are hitting the button more often.</I><BR/><BR/>They want to <B>lower</B> the Judgement cooldown. So yea...Shwitz44https://www.blogger.com/profile/12859042711928927792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-76006122960776997242008-10-30T05:48:00.000-07:002008-10-30T05:48:00.000-07:00andrew, The keyword in your post was "SURVIV...andrew, The keyword in your post was "SURVIVE". You should not be able to be immune to all attacks & still spam judge, strike & storm b2b2b. That is something like a 10-15k HP swing. (immune to the 5k+ dmg most dps classes could do to you in that time if you were not shielded + the 5-10k dmg you can do during that 4.5 seconds of burst) <BR/><BR/>So how is that even remotely fair?Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03891728760007797608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-46767518874159441902008-10-30T05:27:00.000-07:002008-10-30T05:27:00.000-07:00While your solution works well in the vaccuum of '...While your solution works well in the vaccuum of 'Ret Only', your changes also affect the other two specs as well.<BR/><BR/>While less a factor for Holy, Protection is also keyed to the Judgement system via Judgements of the Just as well as it being a core part of our threat as well. Making our threat more spikey rather than smoothing it out by lengthening the CD would make our tanking viability plummet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-9759986170207625222008-10-30T05:20:00.000-07:002008-10-30T05:20:00.000-07:00Honestly i don't think a linked-3s-CD would be a g...Honestly i don't think a linked-3s-CD would be a good solution.<BR/><BR/>The problem in PvP was the extreme Burstdamage. The problem is not that the Ret has 5 attacks in 4,5s, cause other classes have a similar PvP opening pattern. The problem simply was that Seals could procc of any of those attacks. So you have a pretty good chance for up to 10 attacks (5 standard + 5 proccs), and would regulary get 7-8 attacks. Even if those don't crit, you quickly get up to 7k damage, after which you can hit most classes with HoW. Add in a crit or two and you have a very good chance of killing anyone in a 6s stun.<BR/><BR/>It would have been enough to remove the seal proccs from judgements and Divine Storm at first and see how it effects burst. That way the maximum attacks in the 4,5s would be reduced to 8, with 6 being the most likely and most of the time after the openers you would not be able to use HoW instantly. <BR/><BR/>If the burst than had been still to high, mainly due to the possible high crits with AoW and RV skilled, Blizz could have changed those talents in the way they did.<BR/><BR/>The ret would still rely on burst to put pressure on his opponent in PvP and would roughly have the same chances as a mage, Moonkin, Warrior or Roque to cripple his opponent in a few seconds. But it would be much more likely that the opponents survives and can turn the tide with the right actions.<BR/><BR/>No need to cripple the Seal and Judgement damage as they did on the Betaserver.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-76890145286783029452008-10-30T03:17:00.000-07:002008-10-30T03:17:00.000-07:00no no the divine shield swing speed penalty is fin...no no the divine shield swing speed penalty is fine. if i'm in the arena and facing 2 arcane mages that are intent on rushing me with all their cool downs popped and trinkets used i need to survive the arcane barrage face rolling and fight through my shield.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02098206342624139814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-47192756826130404512008-10-29T18:53:00.000-07:002008-10-29T18:53:00.000-07:00Rohan, I'm sold. I've been trying to find another...Rohan, I'm sold. I've been trying to find another way, since it has the risk of being too slow with more dead space. However, it will increase the trade off of using each ability, something GC has said he wants to see with the class. Now it's just a case of tuning each ability's unique cooldown and it's damage.<BR/><BR/>With this change I think there needs to be a "slow" affect (ie. hamstring) added to Judgment of Justice. This won't solve the gap closing issue, we have stuns and Hand of Freedom for that (cough), but it will help Pallies stay in range to do their slower more meaningful DPS.<BR/><BR/>As for the Seal procs on specials, I agree that it should be removed for Seal of Command, however for Seal of Corruption/Vengeance it should still proc off of specials. This helps Prot threat generation and DPS and helps give Holy some DPS.<BR/><BR/>The next discussion you need to have is about AP to Spell Power impacting Holy DPS scaling :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-79230729191527760922008-10-29T15:54:00.000-07:002008-10-29T15:54:00.000-07:00The longer Global cooldown will have very little e...The longer Global cooldown will have very little effect on prot/holy because booth consecration and judgment are on a cooldown of there own.It will just mean they can spam them together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-85165866639586680542008-10-29T15:24:00.000-07:002008-10-29T15:24:00.000-07:00Rohan, I think you're very close on this with one ...<I> Rohan, I think you're very close on this with one modification. Put CS and DS on the same 3 second cool down. Increase the cooldown of DS from 10 to 12 seconds (and buff dmg accordingly). This gives Ret a usable rotation between DS and CS. </I><BR/><BR/>This doesn't work. You go DS, Judgement, CS, sneaking in Judgement in the GCD between DS and CS. Exact same combo as current situation, only in a different order.<BR/><BR/>Judgement needs to be on the same "retribution global cooldown" for this scheme to work.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-70936280362759086732008-10-29T15:18:00.000-07:002008-10-29T15:18:00.000-07:00Rohan, I think you're very close on this with one ...Rohan, I think you're very close on this with one modification. Put CS and DS on the same 3 second cool down. Increase the cooldown of DS from 10 to 12 seconds (and buff dmg accordingly). This gives Ret a usable rotation between DS and CS. <BR/><BR/>The key here is to leave Judgment alone, this way it does not impact Prot and Holy as much. <BR/><BR/>This more closely matches Enhancement Shaman burst, They are able to use both a Shock and Storm Strike in two global cool downs, plus windfury (Seal of Command) procs. This mimics a CS/DS and Judgment burst damage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-39705515163902154762008-10-29T15:02:00.000-07:002008-10-29T15:02:00.000-07:00oh and Rohan, as always fantastic analysis.oh and Rohan, as always fantastic analysis.Kinzlayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16001395426828520653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-27793846614860713072008-10-29T15:00:00.000-07:002008-10-29T15:00:00.000-07:00I think there are two issues that are being linked...I think there are two issues that are being linked but they shouldn't be. The burst damage should not be a solution for the lack of "gap closing ability." Maybe I'm wrong and totally misunderstand some of the view points expressed here but being susceptible to kiting shouldn't mean we should get burst damage to kill them before they can kite us. Our ability should be modified in order to close the gap, even Warrior's charge and intercept doesn't guarantee that they won't be kited, just means they have a chance to catch up and smash their enemies, then it's not even a guarantee they can burst enough damage to kill before being kited again.Kinzlayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16001395426828520653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-16411559080680968332008-10-29T12:52:00.000-07:002008-10-29T12:52:00.000-07:00I like it. Plus the -50-75% damage while under Div...I like it. <BR/><BR/>Plus the -50-75% damage while under Divine Shield. Then just need something to help close the gap a little more in PvP although there is Repentance & HoJ. They just need to make these changes ability specific so that it doesn't hurt Holy or Prot, but that shouldn't be hard to do. <BR/><BR/>Did you post any of these ideas on the forums?Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03891728760007797608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-86659083064283310182008-10-29T10:09:00.000-07:002008-10-29T10:09:00.000-07:00Now GC is saying they want Ret to be "bursty" but ...Now GC is saying they want Ret to be "bursty" but that seems to be causing all the issue to begin with. I like your idea Rohan. <BR/><BR/>When the devs never show us that they have a clear cut idea of what they want our class to be it is disheartening. Even as a Healadin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-42554574584383069482008-10-29T10:00:00.000-07:002008-10-29T10:00:00.000-07:00Additionally, to deal with the problem of Pally bu...<I>Additionally, to deal with the problem of Pally burst (which is that it's too extreme, not that it exists) I do like the 3 sec cooldown, but only apply it to Crusader Strike and Divine Storm.</I><BR/><BR/>This doesn't work. You can go Crusader Strike, Judgement, Divine Storm, and get around the cooldown.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-76966885448081962902008-10-29T09:57:00.000-07:002008-10-29T09:57:00.000-07:00@negativezero, It shouldn't hurt levelling. Judgem...@negativezero, It shouldn't hurt levelling. Judgement does increase from 10s-12s, but it also gets 20% more damage. Since you now get a Judgement hit at the very start of the fight, levelling should actually come out slightly ahead. In any case, it's better than the constant nerfing of Seals and Judgements we are seeing now.<BR/><BR/>@anonymous, haste doesn't affect the GCDs of melee abilities. It really only affects auto-swing damage for ret paladins.<BR/><BR/>@myze, that would work for PvE, but it does nothing for PvP<BR/><BR/>I understand that burst is how we kill people. But Blizzard is consistently nerfing each individual ability to the ground because of that burst. My proposal would give us stronger individual abilities. Divine Storm becomes Holy damage once again. Judgement hits like 40% harder. We just can't string them together. Each individual ability is fine, it's the combination <I>at the begining</I> that hurts.<BR/><BR/>It's a bit different for Arms warriors because they can't launch the combination at the beginning of the fight, they have to build up some rage first.<BR/><BR/>Also, I do agree the bubble should be -50% damage.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-36213461373816414812008-10-29T09:20:00.000-07:002008-10-29T09:20:00.000-07:00There's an easy way to fix the bubble problem. Mak...There's an easy way to fix the bubble problem. Make it a talent point...in holy...fairly deep in the tree. Then adjust the dps of ret, survivability of prot (even though while tanking they won't use it) to account for it. A paladin with less survivability is a paladin that can receive more dps, and maybe an interrupt. Maybe even a snare.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-62334661832525044032008-10-29T08:39:00.000-07:002008-10-29T08:39:00.000-07:00I think it could work.Having a reasonable and unde...I think it could work.<BR/><BR/>Having a reasonable and understandable pastern is something that would be a big benefit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-35976065726750718462008-10-29T07:03:00.000-07:002008-10-29T07:03:00.000-07:00speaking as a prot pally, the linking of judgement...speaking as a prot pally, the linking of judgement to consecration on a 6s cooldown could form problems when offtanking in raids given that we are already hard pressed to keep up. they closed the gap with warriors etc, but it still exists. <BR/><BR/>however post patch i have found consecration to be a much less used spell in my arsenal, given the higher mana cost. this is likely due to outgearing the nerfed heroics etc tho.. lets see how this holds up in wotlk<BR/><BR/>for the most part, excellent post.. i'm just really not a big fan of no longer procing seals on specials. this is a big deal for prot, as our ability to put SoV on multiple targets via the use of hammer of righteousness is a cornerstone of our tanking rotation right now.<BR/><BR/>one wonders how much easier this would be to balance if they would just go with a "crusader form" for ret. special rules for that form, problem solved. stop fiddling with three specs, create a form and fiddle with one.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17628904087982715762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-88282154029947686552008-10-29T06:21:00.000-07:002008-10-29T06:21:00.000-07:00Retadins don't do any more damage then an Arms war...Retadins don't do any more damage then an Arms warrior w/ similar gear. The problem is that paladins have heals, and a bubble. Blizzard could fix this whole issue if they just changed the bubble so that instead of an attack speed reduction it was a percentage of damage reduction, something drastic like 70%.<BR/><BR/>SO SO SO many times have I gone against two people in the BG's, popped my bubble and murdered the first guy with in 6 seconds, healed to full and murdered the second guy. This is why people are complaining about Retadins.<BR/><BR/>Fix the bubble, problem solved. We still do good burst damage, pvp, pve. We just won't be able to roll over people any more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-20204590662143865882008-10-29T06:17:00.000-07:002008-10-29T06:17:00.000-07:00As a Prot Pally (on the side,) I think it would be...As a Prot Pally (on the side,) I think it would be a better idea to couple one of the Ret specific abilities to the Consecration cooldown. For example, Crusader Strike could trigger a 6-second cooldown on Consecrate and vice versa.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, to deal with the problem of Pally burst (which is that it's too extreme, not that it exists) I do like the 3 sec cooldown, but only apply it to Crusader Strike and Divine Storm. Judgment (or Judgement as Blizzard likes to call it) is simply used too far across the board to be changed just to fix Ret.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, I agree with everything you say about seals only proccing on white damage. That's how it should be, and I don't see why they don't just change it.<BR/><BR/>I also think there's something that needs to be done about the Pally class running on Auto-Pilot. Seems to me a /castrandom macro does nearly as well as timing the cooldowns yourself.Dessyreqthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09239625442574164368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-84649465349869890822008-10-29T05:38:00.001-07:002008-10-29T05:38:00.001-07:00A fantastic post as usual, but I have to agree wit...A fantastic post as usual, but I have to agree with this para in the first comment:<BR/><BR/>It is clear that ret lacks interrupts and intercepts because we are built around burst. if we remove the burst, then we need more abilities.<BR/><BR/>I think that paladins simply need more combat abilities, that do less damage perhaps but make the class feel more interactive (and an interrupt on a 15-20 cd!)<BR/><BR/>One thing that's probably been suggested since vanilla beta is to simply make Exorcism and Holy Wrath usable against all targets.<BR/><BR/>I imagine that these were restricted to Undead and demons to guard against PVP burst damage, but from a pure game playing perspective I'll often try and fight demons and undead with my pala since I'll simply have more buttons to press i.e. the class feels fun.<BR/><BR/>So my takeaway is that numbers aside, the class just isn't fun enough because of too much times in rotations when we're stuck with just white damage/auto-attack and nothing to press...<BR/><BR/>Still I feel that playing my pala is like driving an automatic as opposed to when I'm playing with my warrior which feels like I'm at the controls of a manual...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14725941085022729574noreply@blogger.com