tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post2001743543448678593..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: On Difficulty and GuildsRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-10616363178440710762009-11-04T14:04:59.235-08:002009-11-04T14:04:59.235-08:00As to the curve in difficulty between Regular and ...As to the curve in difficulty between Regular and Heroic ToC (10 man AND 25 man), I agree that it's a steep one. Like Kowai-Koneko said "It's like getting slapped in the face with a wet fish." Although I find it challenging, it's still doable by most, if not all of the WoW population, given a couple weeks of lesser raiding. I find that if you can set aside a couple hours each week for 10 man and 25 man ToC/Ony/VoA, you can be ToGC ready within a couple weeks. For example, I recently hit 80 on my warlock (about 5 days ago) and I can already pull my weight in a ToGC 10 man (approx. 6k dps on single-target fights)<br /><br />For the casuals, who do not wish to take the time to get geared, theres the lower-tier raids such as OS, Naxx and Ulduar, which all still provide a challenge to people getting introduced to raids and are by no means "boring". New content is made to entertain the dedicated, the "higher class" raiding guilds. Sorry to anyone who does not consider themselves to be in such a guild, but this is how I see it.Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-58321770770235192952009-11-02T13:45:42.878-08:002009-11-02T13:45:42.878-08:00Aristocrate here.
Personally I find the current r...Aristocrate here.<br /><br />Personally I find the current raids scale from easy as hell (puggable within 30 minutes) to challenging beyond blief (not impossible, just extremely hard)<br /><br />-ToC 10 man is puggable with fresh 80s (assuming the tanks/healers have 5 man H ToC gear)<br />-ToC 25 man is puggable (with ToC 10/Ony/H ToC gear)<br />-ToGC 10 is puggable (with difficulty, ToC 10/25 and Ony 10/25 suggested)<br />-ToGC 25 is... not puggable, at least not yet. Many guilds have completed it, and many more are capable of doing it if they are willing to put the effort in. Sure it's not easy, but its the HARDEST RAID OUT. You're not meant to clear it after 5 wipes, 10 wipes, even 100 wipes. Thats why your given a full FIFTY attempes each week. This is supposed to keep the top end guilds occupied while they work on new raids (IC and whatnot) not satisfy the general population (the "casual" raiders as you put it)<br /><br />All in all, the complaints are unjustified. They are made to be hard, to the point of being unclearable to those unwilling to spend the time working on them. Personally I find they are balanced enough.Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-91364354184827443102009-11-01T05:06:42.283-08:002009-11-01T05:06:42.283-08:00Another aristocrat here.
I'm very impressed w...Another aristocrat here.<br /><br />I'm very impressed with this analogy. Your assessment seems dead on and you described all the WoW stereotypes quite well (I mean this in a good way).<br /><br />There are exceptions to every rule though. The "WoW is too easy" statements often come from burned out former players as well, many of which were in the aristocracy and royalty.<br /><br />I think the main problem with heroic trial going from normal to heroic mode is that you go into the instance feeling confident because you can clear all the bosses on normal and the strats for the most part remain fundamentally the same with only minor "gimmick" additions like Jaraxxus' portals needing to be dps'd down. Stepping out of normal mode into heroic beasts just feels like getting slapped in the face with a wet fish because the contrast difficulties in your mind which makes the perceived difficulty far greater than the actual difficulty... it feels like the difference between black and white when it's really more like going from light grey to dark grey.<br /><br />Looking at individual encounters, northrend beasts is a bit odd because it's a boss fight that gets easier the further you're in rather than harder. Gormok hits like a truck on the tanks and causes a lot of raid damage with his snobolds and fire bombs and many guilds will never be able to get past him... but those who do will likely find the worms and by contrast to Gormok they feel very easy. Once the worms are dead you get Icehowl who is a cake walk compared to worms and and even easier when compared to gormok. I don't know if it was intentional that the fight would start hard and get easier but I do think gormok could be nerfed and icehowl could be buffed, the worms are just right.<br /><br />I think heroic northrend beasts is a reasonable step sideways in difficult from yogg saron +4. One is not necessarily harder than the other, they're just different and require different skillsets.Kowai-Konekohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15279205884603437817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3977643162462080332009-10-31T18:48:53.506-07:002009-10-31T18:48:53.506-07:00This is an amazingly insightful post. If I could d...This is an amazingly insightful post. If I could do more to propagate your message, I would.Subhodeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125247515428710764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-45000487061186414432009-10-27T00:34:56.438-07:002009-10-27T00:34:56.438-07:00I can't agree with you more on your analogy...I can't agree with you more on your analogy's and what class of genre the "wow is easy" comments usually come from. You nailed it for sure. The content is right in front of them for the taking,if they choose. Chalk up a Tribute to Insanity under your belt and then you may say "wow is easy"...and generally ppl who have come that far would not even say such a thing;comments such as those more than likely come from players who are behind on progression,usually from the gentry as you have put.Marshalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10512776812185803630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-22082601466356964752009-10-24T14:05:38.717-07:002009-10-24T14:05:38.717-07:00I suspect you're not really talking about &quo...I suspect you're not really talking about "hard" in the same way that people complaining about WotLK are.<br /><br />Rolling a 6 five times in a row on die is certainly 'hard' - there's a very small chance you can do it. But it isn't very satisfying when you do. The 'hard' comes from factors outside your control.<br /><br />The best raids aren't the ones where no one screws up. They're the ones where the exceptional effort of one player can compensate for the errors of another. Such raids reward exceptional players.<br /><br />WotLK raiding instead rewards consistent mediocrity. Being the best Paladin in the world doesn't help your guild advance. Being merely adequate - amongst a group of equally adequate players - does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-53434955147432410902009-10-24T08:18:19.760-07:002009-10-24T08:18:19.760-07:00You're entirely right. My guild is Gentry, a...You're entirely right. My guild is Gentry, and has been trying and failing to break into the Aristocracy (in 10 man) for a month or so. My 10 man group is breaking up because of it. I may take time off from WoW as it's just boring doing the normal instances again and again. We clear 10 man normal ToC in under an hour with no wipes.<br /><br />As you say, there is too steep a curve between normal and hard modes in ToC. Heroic Northrend Beasts is a seriously tough first boss (for us, anyway).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-17356352190091684762009-10-24T02:28:27.165-07:002009-10-24T02:28:27.165-07:00Interesting.
Our guild hovers between Gentry and ...Interesting.<br /><br />Our guild hovers between Gentry and Aristocracy (bottom tier)<br /><br />One of the main walls to getting any further has been numbers - there are far too many smaller guilds on our server trying to make it on their own. <br /><br />Another has been the poaching of members from some of the Aristocratic guilds who have lost players to Aion or burnout.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-52623019889478219652009-10-23T15:38:12.264-07:002009-10-23T15:38:12.264-07:00I think the people reading this article and gettin...I think the people reading this article and getting upset at the "elitism" are getting distracted by the article's semantics, and are misunderstanding the analogies, and by extension the point of the article.<br /><br />The hierarchical categories aren’t supposed to be “superior” to “inferior” so much reflect the gradient scale of the focus & philosophy of the types of raiding groups. On one end, you have the players who are very serious about raiding (and on the other end you have the players for whom raiding is not much of a focus more than any other aspect of the game, and everyone in between. That’s all it is supposed to represent. <br /><br />Furthermore, we already subscribe to this sort of scale in the gaming community, the author just put a different face on it. Probably all of us have spread at one time or another have spread the “hardcore/casual” meme which again represents the dichotomy of attitudes between raiders. If anything, the old meme has a stronger negative connotation and the added bonus of being far too black and white to be accurate, as it represents only an extreme minority of raids. <br /><br />If you’re getting hung up on the terms, replace them with neutral categories like letters or colours, or lay your gradient horizontal and read it again.<br /><br />The point of the article is that the bulk of the raiding players in this game are finding themselves in the middle of the gradient, and the middle section is the part of the game that has the least to offer. The game progression is not linear enough, and many raiders are getting stuck at points they shouldn’t need to be getting stuck at. It has nothing to do with whether guild B is inferior to guild A. The effort to serve both the so-called casuals and the so-called hardcore (an effort I commend), as resulted in too much of a jump between point A and point B to serve the “everyman.” And the everyman is upset.Ozznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-53918444407822472032009-10-23T15:28:33.145-07:002009-10-23T15:28:33.145-07:00@DJ Fatso Stupid
If the metaphor lacks something ...@DJ Fatso Stupid<br /><br /><i>If the metaphor lacks something it is that it (if takent too literally) suggests that the ranking is based on fate rather than dedication and merit, which it appears you believe anyway.</i><br /><br />I wasn't going to respond to the rest, since it was based on things I never actually said...but as a side note, yes, that is actually what I believe. But that's a conversation for elsewhere.Catharsisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-91378576210726731292009-10-23T15:24:17.695-07:002009-10-23T15:24:17.695-07:00@Rohan
"Stereotyping" is only a problem ...@Rohan<br /><i>"Stereotyping" is only a problem if the stereotypes are not true.</i><br /><br />I totally agree. That's the point -- they may not be true. Stereotyping more often than not leads to prejudice. Prejudice = pre-judging someone based on prior experience. Therefore, why go there at all?<br /><br />@DJ Fatso Stupid<br /><i>On average people who spend more time doing things are better at them. It's called practice and it does not invalidate their skill.</i><br /><br />First of all, thank you for informing me of the definition of practice. I had not ever heard of this word in my entire life.<br /><br />Secondly, almost the entire rest of your response is based on a total misreading of what I wrote, seeing things that weren't there, and jumping to conclusions on those implications that weren't there.<br /><br />1) I made no comment on anyone's skill level whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you even implied that I did.<br /><br />2) Building off of that, I also did not say that people spending more time raiding are not better than people who don't spend as much time.<br /><br />3) I did not call anyone childish. Not sure where that comment came from.<br /><br />Please, next time, don't read what you want to read and then respond to it.Catharsisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-12650944956656919422009-10-23T14:58:17.957-07:002009-10-23T14:58:17.957-07:00To respond to Catharsis:
Why a person is in the ge...To respond to Catharsis:<br />Why a person is in the gentry is irrelevant to the article. My personal situation is that I can only raid 3 nights a week maximum. My guild can clear totc 25 and ony 25 in under 2 hours, but we spent 3 hours wiping on totgc 25 beasts just last night. I guess we are nudging the aristocracy, but count as a gentry guild. Once you can accept that you are in a guild in a particular situation and can be classified along with other guilds in a very similar situation, then you can begin to analyse why it happened (from a game design perspective) and so on.<br /><br />Rohan, the specific titles you used are probably the most controversial thing about this post, simply because of the social class elements to it. I agree with the spirit of it, a really good read.Unglarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-80873843473207224822009-10-23T13:58:13.424-07:002009-10-23T13:58:13.424-07:00Quoting Catharsis:
"Are you being completely...Quoting Catharsis:<br /><br />"Are you being completely serious? That's the only reason you can think of why they haven't done hard modes? Has it ever occurred to you there are other things that may take their time like, oh, I don't know... work? Family? Travel? Anything > WoW?"<br /><br />Yes, but that doesn't mean that people who put in more time than you aren't better than you. On average people who spend more time doing things are better at them. It's called practice and it does not invalidate their skill.<br /><br />Seriously raiding and beating hardmodes takes about as much time commitment as being on a sports team in a local league, probably even less. If it is not something you want to prioritize in your life then don't, but don't try to pretend that the people who do prioritize it aren't better than you at it. If you can't take down Trial of the Grand Crusader it is because you are not good enough to do so. When you are good enough, it barely takes an hour.<br /><br />Blaming it on your more enlightened priority list and implying that people who have the time to do this are losers is childish. Do you really think that saying "The *only* reason you can do that is because you put in the time and effort" diminishes their accomplishments?<br /><br />And maybe you find the names of the categories in the hierarchy a little facecious, but they do a good job of illustrating the point. If the metaphor lacks something it is that it (if takent too literally) suggests that the ranking is based on fate rather than dedication and merit, which it appears you believe anyway.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-16202200428146252952009-10-23T13:50:52.228-07:002009-10-23T13:50:52.228-07:00@Catharsis, I disagree with you on a fundamental l...@Catharsis, I disagree with you on a fundamental level. "Stereotyping" is only a problem if the stereotypes are not true. I believe that proper classification and identification of items that share similarities is <i>vital</i> to discovering solutions to problems. <br /><br />For example, if I state:<br /><br />Problem: People think WoW raiding is too easy. <br />Solution: Nerf Heroic Beasts.<br /><br />Then that makes no sense. Why would making a fight easier make the game harder?<br /><br />But rephrasing it as:<br /><br />Problem: Gentry guilds are stuck between normal and hard modes. They see Hard modes as aimed at the edge guilds, and normal as too easy.<br />Solution: Nerf Heroic Beasts so that they feel that beating it is possible, thus moving them up into hard modes.<br /><br />That makes a sort of sense. But you need to identify and stratify the guilds to get at the real problem and then a real solution.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-35820323768100328902009-10-23T13:44:04.453-07:002009-10-23T13:44:04.453-07:00I disagree with some comments:
You can, in a week...I disagree with some comments:<br /><br />You can, in a week of too much play, get enough badges, HTOTC5 and TOTC5 gear to competitvely go through TOTC10 normal and ONY10. I've done it on a tank (pally-splatter) and a mage (kablooie). Look at the achievement sections on the armory if you call bullshit.<br /><br />In a 2-3 weeks of normal play without stepping into raids, your gear can be up to this level as well. The way they do badges now, it is VERY possible to gear up to a raid ready level with badges and heroics, esp totc5-heroic.<br /><br />Blizzard has destroyed the "remedial progression" that was required to do T6/sunwell in TBC, and that is a FANTASTIC thing.<br /><br /><br />Secondly, almost EVERY guild is contantly recruiting or they're dying. All these ranks have player attrition. '<br /><br /><br />Lastly, the player pool you list as doing the upper level content is perhaps being exaggerated with the way you took your numbers. I know on Farstriders I raid with a non guild based raid syndicate, and with the way your numbers are gathered, these sorts of syndicates may *Vastly* be over counting the number of high performers. My 10 man team, for instances, is at the Aristocrat level, and has people from 5-6 guilds in it. I am aware of 3 other groups that have non-guild based raids on this server alone, I'm wondering if your methods of research accurately accounted them, or more guilds are actually stuck at the gentry level then it appears.Treason of Farstridershttp://farstridersrs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-38625965068420138232009-10-23T13:38:53.465-07:002009-10-23T13:38:53.465-07:00It seems very conspicuous that people who can'...It seems very conspicuous that people who can't beat the hardest content are the people who are complaining things are too easy. They are, as you say, stuck between easy modes and hard modes, but I still feel like that story doesn't check out.<br /><br />How many of us really believe that there is are more than a tiny handful of guilds out there that smashed their way through TotC without wiping, or, let's say, with only two or three wipes; and that simply cannot beat heroic beasts. It's absurd. If someone caught between normal and hard difficulties is saying normal is too easy while disregarding hardmodes as things for "crazy" people then it's hard not to believe they are in one of two situations:<br /><br />1) Their guild actually struggled and wiped on normal, but now that they can beat it quite regularly with few wipes they have basically mentally rewritten their own history to edit out the fact that they were indeed challenged by the content.<br /><br />or<br /><br />2) Their guild is more than competent enough to take on hardmodes but doesn't want to put in work to learn harder fights because they don't like to lose and be reminded they aren't really that awesome at the game, but rather are only pretty good.<br /><br />Saying things are too easy is just a form of boasting (Stars excepted, they have a legitimate complaint that they want to compete for world firsts but can't because the content is beaten before they get it), but it's hard to boast when you spend 6 to 10 hours a week wiping to content that other people on your server beat long ago.<br /><br />This problem occurs with all kind of pursuits and hobbies. There are always people who are in the top 10% who feel very insecure about not being in the top 1% so they spend their time trying to diminish the accomplishments of the majority. This majority, of course, would rather have fun working away at their own pace without someone telling them that what they are working so hard on is easy.<br /><br />I do agree that normal difficulty Val'kyrs and Anub'Arak could stand to be a little harder to better ramp up towards heroic difficulty, but while that would make the game better, I don't think it would do much to solve the problem being discussed.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-42823106586119740452009-10-23T13:25:13.829-07:002009-10-23T13:25:13.829-07:00Hi... I'll create an account at some point so...Hi... I'll create an account at some point soon so I'm not anonymous.<br /><br />@The original blog post. You described a great phenomenon in WOW I have thought about. I like your review of everything. However, I think it misses some discussion from the perspective of the developers. You have essentially described and identified the bottle-neck in WOW guild progression.<br /><br />The real question in my mind is, "Is this really a problem or is the criticism and complaining a function of the artifact?". I don't think that the distribution of guilds and progression should change. I don't think it will stop the complaints people make.<br /><br />What I mean by this is that in this expansion they created a distribution of progression that is exactly on target with their expressed goals. The majority of players can see the majority of content and experience the quests and art and everything else, but there is still a challenge and epic gear range available to the most dedicated players.<br /><br />Most significantly, this also requires a constant rollover of gear within the expansion in addition to between expansions. This expansion has a constant turnover of gear beyond anything we have seen before. <br /><br />This distribution, combined with the need for constant gear rollover, has created the perspective from the players that everything is too easy. You have old content that players are now over-geared for like never before. Not only can groups move through normal mode content relatively easily, they can ultimately aquire the gear that the hard modes had to offer in order to advance to the next normal mode. This must happen if you want the majority of players to see all the content on normal mode. It's great in terms of game experience and the use of your content as a developer. The complaining was always there, but now it is simply focused on this artifact. Where it happens and over what level of difficulty is an artifact of where they set the bottle-neck for difficulty and availability of content.<br /><br />It's still pretty amazing that they have set up content that only a few thousand guilds can really complete with ease in the context of the 10s of 1000s of guilds that exist across the 10,000,000 players.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-89411901581009510892009-10-23T13:22:47.344-07:002009-10-23T13:22:47.344-07:00I feel sorry for the Gentry. Apparently, they will...<i>I feel sorry for the Gentry. Apparently, they will be unable to do Icecrown Citadel because work, family and travel will get in their way.</i><br /><br />I really can't tell if that's sarcasm or not. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume it is.<br /><br /><i>Seriously, if they don't have enough time to try TotGC hard modes, how do you expect them to have enough time to finish a 14-boss dungeon?</i><br /><br />Maybe we're missing each other's point. I'm saying that 1) spending all this time trying to classify people into "Royalty" or "Proletariat" is demeaning, and 2) there is no way anyone could possibly break up all the reasons and ins and outs of why certain people or guilds progress in a certain way or do certain things. AND, all of this is encouraging even more stereotyping, which is already a plague in the WoW community.Catharsisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-72137531233710591512009-10-23T13:17:47.728-07:002009-10-23T13:17:47.728-07:00Are you being completely serious? That's the o...<i>Are you being completely serious? That's the only reason you can think of why they haven't done hard modes? Has it ever occurred to you there are other things that may take their time like, oh, I don't know... work? Family? Travel? Anything > WoW?</i><br /><br />I feel sorry for the Gentry. Apparently, they will be unable to do Icecrown Citadel because work, family and travel will get in their way.<br /><br />Seriously, if they don't have enough time to try TotGC hard modes, how do you expect them to have enough time to finish a 14-boss dungeon?Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-83435882864675116652009-10-23T13:11:01.197-07:002009-10-23T13:11:01.197-07:00Also...
"However, I think the current compla...Also...<br /><br />"However, I think the current complaints about WoW being too easy are coming from the Gentry. They can beat regular modes fairly easily, but hard modes are completely beyond their touch."<br /><br />Are you being completely serious? That's the only reason you can think of why they haven't done hard modes? Has it ever occurred to you there are other things that may take their time like, oh, I don't know... work? Family? Travel? Anything > WoW?<br /><br />Seriously. Infantile.Catharsisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-1483254414105909452009-10-23T13:08:41.947-07:002009-10-23T13:08:41.947-07:00I find this breakdown infantile.
Why do you fee...I find this breakdown infantile. <br /><br />Why do you feel the need to break up and segment groups of players in the first place? Is this so you can classify yourself as an "Aristocrat" or something?<br /><br />Secondly, some of your examples are just crippled.Catharsisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-71444636059315932072009-10-23T12:46:42.438-07:002009-10-23T12:46:42.438-07:00The problem with creating a segment for Naxx/Uldua...The problem with creating a segment for Naxx/Ulduar guilds is that the content, based on game progression, is obsolete. You can pick up 219 ilvl items from Trial of Champions and 226 ilvl items from conquest emblems.<br /><br />This means if you are currently working on Naxx or Ulduar you are doing so now by leveraging some of the (I know you will hate this term) handicap features Blizzard is building into the game. From a raid progression standpoint, the group of players "raiding" under the current raid content (Trial of the Crusaders) is basically the same demographic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-64575548345780088502009-10-23T12:16:25.831-07:002009-10-23T12:16:25.831-07:00Forgetting Naxx and Ulduar was just an oversight o...Forgetting Naxx and Ulduar was just an oversight on my part. I was generating numbers using Guild Progress, which only shows one instance at a time.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-61711412699462821472009-10-23T12:12:55.678-07:002009-10-23T12:12:55.678-07:00"With the way badges work in Wrath, I'm n..."With the way badges work in Wrath, I'm not sure why any guilds would still be working on Naxx or even Ulduar"<br /><br />To beat them? Progression <> just gear. Doing them in order keeps it a challenge even a year laterUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12668133155884466094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-58132891156772121372009-10-23T12:09:39.642-07:002009-10-23T12:09:39.642-07:00Acouple weeks ago I made a very similar post on mm...Acouple weeks ago I made a very similar post on mmochamp to this article. I however lumped the Aristocracy Gentry and Bourgeoisie together as upper middle and lower middle class. It was the aristocracy(upper middle class) that was complaining that the Gentry(middle) and Burgeoise(lower middle) now had access to the same gear they did.<br /><br />The response was almost exactly the same<br />Post ranging from "Spot On!" to "i agree but..." to "your full of sh!t classifying raiders like that, i dont fit any where so you are disproven!" and to "i like turtles!"Doddilusnoreply@blogger.com