tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post2779386504376297232..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: Last look at PvP vs PvE RewardsRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-51635238543266805732007-12-21T16:25:00.000-08:002007-12-21T16:25:00.000-08:00@gwaendar"I understand perfectly, on the contrary,...@gwaendar<BR/><BR/>"I understand perfectly, on the contrary, and I've said time and time again that PvE reward system needs an adjustment, including more means of recognition. You're barking up the wrong tree, or even the wrong forest, I don't think I know of any PvPer who disagrees with that."<BR/><BR/>No, you said twice that while in PvP "gear is the means", and PvE "gear is the end" as if they were some mutual exclusion. Its a ridiculous satement to make, and is anti-raiding. <BR/><BR/>My entire "gear as trophy" bit was because you asked "why would you care? What have they taken away from you or your gaming experience, or the enjoyment you had from overcoming raid challenges?". Yes, the primary enjoyment from raids comes from killing bosses, the gear that drops is the secondary component. It is difficult to acheive thus unique.<BR/><BR/>"Trophy" was an admittedly bad word to use, but my argument still stants. Humor me when I say that the aesthetics of PvP progression bother me.<BR/><BR/>At level 1 you start out in makeshift arms and armor and work your way up into progressively cooler gear (usually). This again is replicated in raiding.<BR/><BR/>It is not replicated in PvP at all well. New players can skip from fresh green/blue gear to S3, and if they put in a decent effort at Arena, you will receive more of it (this is a good thing!). After a while, everyone accumulates the same, best gear for the Arenas. The visible disctinction between merely above average Arena teams and the highest rated teams is negligible. I've seen it happen on my own server.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, the visible distinction in gear between somone below lvl 30 and somone at lvl 70 is readily apparent. The distinction between a guild in BT and a guild just starting SSC is apparent.<BR/><BR/>Blizzard agrees that there should be a more visible distinction for successful PvPers. Its why S3 shoulders are ratings locked. I don't think they go far enough. At the same time, I realize theres an obvious gear imbalance that simply having a hard ratings locking on every peice of gear would introduce. Eliminating earning gear altogether would take the fun out of having a character a player customizes and grows in strength over time. (Also Blizzard would be crazy to eliminate one grind without introducing another)<BR/><BR/>Conceivably, a solution that would satisfy me is that there should be a system in place where low skilled PvPers and high skilled PvPers settle into gear sets that are visibly different yet competitively equal. Adittionally, obtaining the lesser tier does not penalize somone time wise when they want to upgrade to the greater tiear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-31696686093542762442007-12-21T13:41:00.000-08:002007-12-21T13:41:00.000-08:00If its true then get rid of the gear all together....<I>If its true then get rid of the gear all together. All Battle grounds and areas are to run naked the only reward to be titles. a contest of pure skill. Want to see just how fast the BG and arenas empty.</I><BR/><BR/>Right. Let's think this true and get rid of ALL the gear. Run PvE naked too, just tweak the encounters. A contest of pure tactics. Want to see just how fast raiding stops forever.<BR/><BR/><I>Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get.</I><BR/><BR/>And we'll just pretend nobody has ever sold a spot in a raid to undergeared people, nobody has ever taken a 25th or a 40th person totally undergeared through a T2 or T5 instance to gear them up that they could get gear without working for it. Heck, nobody has ever stolen a raid ID.<BR/><BR/>Hypocrite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-34629923495186323902007-12-21T13:31:00.000-08:002007-12-21T13:31:00.000-08:00@Rohan:It depends entirely on the class. Shamans a...@Rohan:<BR/><BR/>It depends entirely on the class. Shamans and Priests will be looking forward for the S3 gear changes (Shamans' 4 set bonus, and Priests' gloves bonus).<BR/><BR/>Also, it's entirely possible currently to go full S2 at the moment from Arena points. But if the person insists on getting S3, it's their choice. How good depends on the changes from season to season.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-60863319944477719062007-12-21T13:28:00.000-08:002007-12-21T13:28:00.000-08:00@ Saxononyx - The removal of rewarding those who j...@ Saxononyx - <BR/><BR/><I>The removal of rewarding those who just leech is were the issue is. Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get.</I><BR/><BR/>And until PvE world learns to accept its easier to enter the PvE world than it is to enter the arena, you guys will understand, that removing the gear is not the way you need to approach the arena. Not at <I>first</I>.<BR/><BR/>If you could craft an epic set of arena gear with decent resilience and stamina, supplement it with other crafted and quested rewards, then yes, I would liked to see a removal of "welfare epics".<BR/><BR/>I see it like this.<BR/><BR/>Raid gear and PvE gear need to be defined. Raid gear is whats obtained from the high level raids. The tier gear, the 20 AP gems.<BR/><BR/>PvE gear should be obtained through instancing, and rep rewards.<BR/><BR/>The above should be the first step to getting raid gear, and it is.<BR/><BR/>I would like to see a system like this for PvP. I believe blizzard should make the rep with BGs more important. Allow special BG rewards like the battle standards, but based on rep, not solely honor.<BR/><BR/>This would allow PvP gear to be classified as rep rewards from BGs, and Honor gear from the arena.<BR/><BR/>Then, I would like to see the bridge between PvP and PvE formed via crafting. I would liked to see both epic PvP and PvE sets obtainable for all classes and factions.<BR/><BR/>Then you could start penalizing those who leech their way to epics.<BR/><BR/>But as it is now, if you started awarding nothing for losing, then there would be no reason to participate in PvP. You would get steamrolled by those with better gear, or when the team ratings reset. Which would lead to you learning counter tactics, but not having the gear to back it up.<BR/><BR/>Gear is the means people, not the end.Alan?https://www.blogger.com/profile/15231936814863959875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-81524505693351659392007-12-21T12:45:00.000-08:002007-12-21T12:45:00.000-08:00"OpenID gwaendar said... Locking people in BG?..."OpenID gwaendar said...<BR/><BR/> Locking people in BG? Loser gets nothing at all?<BR/> Most ludicrous proposals ever uttered in this context. On every Battlegroup, there's certain BGs one faction wins a lot more often. If you implement those two things, the weaker side will simply stop queuing up.<BR/><BR/> As always, spoken from the point of view of someone who cannot get into his head that in PvP, the gear is not the end, just an enabler.<BR/><BR/> 9:13 AM, December 20, 2007"<BR/><BR/><BR/>The above is absolute BS. <BR/><BR/>If its true then get rid of the gear all together. All Battle grounds and areas are to run naked the only reward to be titles. a contest of pure skill. Want to see just how fast the BG and arenas empty. <BR/><BR/>They reward system for PVP is simply broken, Yes those who put in serious effort get their rewards faster, But those who simply leech also get rewards. The removal of rewarding those who just leech is were the issue is. Until the PVP world can accept a removal of those rewards it will always have a Bad reputation amongst players who have to work for every reward the get. <BR/><BR/>And yes, I have Kara on farm, But i also Do arena 3v3, and am working when I can on the Conquerer title from the BG's. I am horrid at 3v3 and don't expect any rewards, I do <BR/>only for the practice in my PvE gear and PvE spec'd.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-10912060320867572212007-12-21T09:23:00.000-08:002007-12-21T09:23:00.000-08:00I like the way the current system works PvE wise, ...I like the way the current system works PvE wise, but it needs to be tweaked a bit more PvP wise.<BR/><BR/>If someone worked their butt-off in a BG, but everyone else slacked off and that team lost, I don't believe that person should be punished. In fact, I think that they should be more rewarded. Honor in BGs should reflect personal valor and skill, somehow.<BR/><BR/>As for arenas, I think it's fine. The better players get shoulders, weapons, and gear faster. The ones that farm points and do the minimum games, like the current situation I'm in, will take weeks to get the best gear, unlike the 2k teams that score more than 800 points a week.Volfmirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899784398725008472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-13514629673097157262007-12-20T13:04:00.000-08:002007-12-20T13:04:00.000-08:00Well, backing away and thinking about the issue, I...Well, backing away and thinking about the issue, I've taken a broader philosophical view.<BR/><BR/>I know from firsthand interaction and talking to people and reading and research that it's possible to cheat or freeload or RMT your way to gear in either PvP or PvE. It happens, it's been documented, and so now I'm (unfortunately) not impressed by the gear of a person I don't know.<BR/><BR/>And while I am annoyed that those hypothetical Arena dancers are harming others, the PvP system, and causing PvP to fall into general disrepute, I find them to be rather pathetic - as pathetic as any cheater and freeloader in either PvP or PvE. Since they didn't earn their gear, they won't use their gear to its potential. After all, PvP gear won't get them raid slots, and if they are cave-dwellers, those of us who actually know PvP combat will destroy them if they think that PvP is ONLY about gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-33072618784610269662007-12-20T11:46:00.000-08:002007-12-20T11:46:00.000-08:00What you fail to understand is why gear is importa...<I>What you fail to understand is why gear is important to Raiders. Besides being necessary to get to down the next boss ahead, they are the only kind of trophy we get to carry around as proof of what we have done.</I><BR/>I understand perfectly, on the contrary, and I've said time and time again that PvE reward system needs an adjustment, including more means of recognition. You're barking up the wrong tree, or even the wrong forest, I don't think I know of any PvPer who disagrees with that.<BR/><BR/><I>because that guy /dance-ing his way to get it is diminishing the significance of our ONLY trophies, which we have to spend a significant time investment to receive.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh snap, fraps the dancer or it didn't happen. <BR/>As for the significant time investment, you're sorely mistaken, you don't <I>have</I> to. Nobody's holding a gun to your head as far as I know. You can get your gear that way, or you can spend an equally significant time into getting a 2400 arena rating and titles instead.<BR/><BR/><I>We force eachother to bring consumables because we like to laugh at eachother for wasting gold on them!</I><BR/>If you have to force yourself to do whatever it takes to keep yourself raiding and it is actually such a chore which gets even more soured because you cannot prance around in Ironforge in unique gear to what you believe is universal admiration (snort), basking in the recognition of such meaningful things as killing a boss in a video game, if you don't simply raid for the enjoyment of it and the satisfaction it can bring you (and hopefully your guild) of toppling a challenge, then there's little anyone can do to help you, I'm sorry to say.<BR/>But what these 5 posts here have shown time and time again, and <A HREF="http://apathyinc.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/alas-for-the-noldor/" REL="nofollow">contrary to what some people have written on other sites</A>, the only people who have issues with the arena, seek to have its system changed, lock it away behind ratings, demean it by any ways, belittle those who practice it and in general spew their envious bile under tons and tons of virtual ink are a tiny fringe of extremist raiders.<BR/><BR/>Face it, the problem isn't arena, it isn't the small minority who cheat their way to gear, and to a point it isn't even the lack of other means of recognition given to raiding, or better loot distribution, or distinct models.<BR/><BR/>It's you. Just you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-25823619727562724002007-12-20T10:59:00.000-08:002007-12-20T10:59:00.000-08:00@gwaendar"For PvP, gear is the means, for PvE, gea...@gwaendar<BR/><BR/>"For PvP, gear is the means, for PvE, gear is the end."<BR/><BR/>Oh! Now I get it! Raiders only raid because they want to put on purple peices of equipment that give them slighty better stats than their last item! I've been farming for every single upgrade I can get my hands on because I'm a purpzed crazed monster and not because my raid group needs every leg up we can get to get through each increasingly difficult encounter we face. We force eachother to bring consumables because we like to laugh at eachother for wasting gold on them!<BR/><BR/>What you fail to understand is why gear is important to Raiders. Besides being necessary to get to down the next boss ahead, they are the only kind of trophy we get to carry around as proof of what we have done. Arena players have a built in rating system that shows their accomplishments. They get a wider array of titles to earn based on how successful they are, while the only PvE title comes from killing a T4 boss. (The mount issue is negligible, because the frequency of players receiving armored netherdrakes and players receiving boss dropped mounts are about equal).<BR/><BR/>So when people start walking around in T4/T5/T6 lookalikes without putting in effort at all to receive them, yes, we are getting concerned, because that guy /dance-ing his way to get it is diminishing the significance of our ONLY trophies, which we have to spend a significant time investment to receive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-51654906662776681612007-12-20T09:13:00.000-08:002007-12-20T09:13:00.000-08:00Locking people in BG? Loser gets nothing at all?Mo...Locking people in BG? Loser gets nothing at all?<BR/>Most ludicrous proposals ever uttered in this context. On every Battlegroup, there's certain BGs one faction wins a lot more often. If you implement those two things, the weaker side will simply stop queuing up.<BR/><BR/>As always, spoken from the point of view of someone who cannot get into his head that in PvP, the gear is not the end, just an enabler.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-74528265522624751912007-12-20T08:47:00.000-08:002007-12-20T08:47:00.000-08:00The problem is that PVP's can do nothing and get ...The problem is that PVP's can do nothing and get epic level rewards that simply is not possible for PvE players. <BR/><BR/>Not all PvP players do nothing , many work hard for their gear. But all should be forced to work hard for there gear. <BR/><BR/>And there is a simple way to enforce this. <BR/><BR/>1) arenas are only fought by those in similar gear and with similar rating. <BR/><BR/>2) you only get arena points fro winning. No free points just for showing up. <BR/><BR/>3) same with BG, No honor is awarded to a non winning team, any one entering a BG is locked into it till it ends <BR/><BR/>This removes the concept of welfare epics as you have to win to get anything. and in BG forces team work and a real attempt to win rather than just milking for honor sinsce if you loose you will not get any of that honor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3253805987849628302007-12-18T21:42:00.000-08:002007-12-18T21:42:00.000-08:00Another point which is interesting is from a gear ...Another point which is interesting is from a gear point of view, is someone better off with 3/5 S3 or 5/5 S2?<BR/><BR/>Remember that I am advocating restricting by quality, not quantity, so a lower ranked team would get more of the lower tier gear to balance. No S3, but a few more pieces of S2.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-80666715266726703092007-12-18T20:05:00.000-08:002007-12-18T20:05:00.000-08:00@ Gwaendar:The problem is a philosophical one. As ...@ Gwaendar:<BR/>The problem is a philosophical one. As with many philosophical problems, there is no easy solution, nor standard. What we can at most do is control our actions (like, not buying arena points even if your team is lackluster) and, if we are in charge, the policies we can affect (like gkicking anyone that doesn't put any dedication to raiding).<BR/><BR/>@Keelie:<BR/>Unless Season 3 lasts a couple of years, I doubt any 1300 team will ever get their hands on 4 pieces of the current set if they started now. At most, they might be getting 2 pieces of S3.<BR/><BR/>How did they did it in S2 and starting S3? Ask Elephante of Mannoroth ( http://outofmana.blogspot.com/2007/11/5-things-not-to-do-if-you-bought-your.html ).<BR/><BR/>The gear I mentioned is obtainable via other ways that excluded PvP, as per your example of requiring some sort of rating on all the gear (BG and arena).<BR/><BR/>And it's entirely possible that you will see starting players with Vindicator's and lvl 65 greens. They might have bought some greens to supplement stamina missing in those pieces, or they don't know how to play (which is an option always).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-70075104520815373972007-12-18T17:04:00.000-08:002007-12-18T17:04:00.000-08:00@daniel:Right now it takes about a month of BGs at...@daniel:<BR/><I>Right now it takes about a month of BGs at an hour a day to get some S1 gear. </I><BR/><BR/>It takes somewhat less than a month, at an hour a day, to get an S1 piece. Just do the daily battleground. That usually averages around 400 honor baselevel, plus or minus (depending on the battleground) <B>plus</B> another 400 honor bonus because it's the daily. That's approximately 800 honor per day. Plus some cash, which you can use for, say, gemming the S1 piece once you get it...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-31694377638599203122007-12-18T15:09:00.000-08:002007-12-18T15:09:00.000-08:00You start a new PvP 5v5 team each week. So you bl...You start a new PvP 5v5 team each week. So you blow and get like a 1400-1450 rating, but make a new one the next week and reset your rating to 1500.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-23892740090305738272007-12-18T10:23:00.000-08:002007-12-18T10:23:00.000-08:00@Tego: For PvP, gear is the means, for PvE, gear i...@Tego: For PvP, gear is the means, for PvE, gear is the end. As long as you cannot integrate this simple rule, you won't be able to see both sides of the argument.<BR/><BR/><I>when S3 came out, i saw, on my RP server 4 teams walking around in every piece of T3 that didn't require a rating.</I><BR/><BR/>I call BS. Since the most which carries over are 5000 points, at best you could get 3 pieces of S3 gear.<BR/><BR/><I>Give everyone the same gear, but then why would people pvp... if the PVPers are right, for love of PVP. How do you reward sucess, give them great status symbols (mounts titles whatever you want) that aren't used in the arena. You would find I think, that many people stop PVPing,</I><BR/>Do the same on raids, give everyone a kit of tiered raid gear which stays in the instance, and you'll find that raiding will have even more trouble attracting players.<BR/><BR/><I>so many people talk about a level playing field, when really at least most of them do not want a level field, just the same advantages they see other people having.</I><BR/>In this whole affair what I've been mostly seeing are some raiders not wanting non-raiders to get access to purples unless they subject themselves to raiding, and will go out of their way to demean and belittle non-raiders. Everyone else, including raiders who don't consider themselves hardcore, don't see an issue with PvP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-69563630736143542522007-12-18T10:12:00.000-08:002007-12-18T10:12:00.000-08:00I must say, I get a good laugh whenever I see "PVP...I must say, I get a good laugh whenever I see "PVP is so gear dependent". That is one of the poorest arguments I have EVER heard for why top end PVP gear is as easy to get as it is. That it is a way for gamers who don't have the time to raid to progress is also not really that valid. It is a way for Them to play, and have fun yes, but progress? That falls to how you define it, and as you can guess I'm a raider, and don't really see PVP as progression (still valid play style, and fun, just doesn't fit with what I've seen as a def of progression.) <BR/><BR/>Back to the original point. "PVP is so gear dependent".... Raiding isn't? there may be the rare case where one person can get an almost free ride from greens into t4 or 5 epics, but in general no. If your raid doesn't have T4 gear (and or some of the equivalent crafted/boe pieces etc) you don't stand a chance beyond T4. so, yeah, raiding is almost a gear dependent, without a way to "quickly get people up to speed" <BR/><BR/>One final note, arena seasons are not, and will not be a level playing field while previous season's points can buy the new season's gear. when S3 came out, i saw, on my RP server 4 teams walking around in every piece of T3 that didn't require a rating. If you are going to tell me that there was some kind of level playing field there, you better have a very convincing argument (yes these were the top teams from S2 on the server) So, lets see, they have a near ludicrous advantage beginning of season, even more once they use that advantage to get the rated items, which slowly diminishes throughout the season, but once they already have a high rating, and are harder to knock off the top. <BR/><BR/>If PVP is gear dependent, and you want a level playing field, there is a simple solution, discussed before. Give everyone the same gear, but then why would people pvp... if the PVPers are right, for love of PVP. How do you reward sucess, give them great status symbols (mounts titles whatever you want) that aren't used in the arena. You would find I think, that many people stop PVPing, Its a nice sentiment to think that we all want to compete on a level playing field, but really, that isn't Human nature, We (in general) want to win, and have every possible chance to do so, We do anything we can to get an advantage, unfair or not....<BR/>a couple of examples for those not convinced. <BR/>stock car racing. there are a ton of rules on performance, what you can or cannot use, but not on power output, or in a strict sense power to weight ratio. therefore each crew does everything they can to do what they think will improve performance. Now, even if all the cars were identical fans would have fun, but not all the drivers would (remember we are the drivers, not the fans in this case) <BR/>cooking competitions, even when there are strict rules on main ingredient everyone does different things to it for what they see as an advantage. if everyone had to cook the same exact thing, it would be boring to watch, judge, and participate in. <BR/>the list goes on, but Hopefully this makes sense. <BR/><BR/>Recap, the argument: PVP is so gear dependent, has little ground, since PVE end game is too. so many people talk about a level playing field, when really at least most of them do not want a level field, just the same advantages they see other people having. <BR/><BR/>TegoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-73093245468279755862007-12-18T09:36:00.000-08:002007-12-18T09:36:00.000-08:00Uh....maybe I'm missing something here.If you lose...Uh....maybe I'm missing something here.<BR/><BR/>If you lose all 10 games every week at the end of 12 weeks you will be down to nothing get no points and have approximately 1800 points which is enough for one piece of equipment. Ask me how I know this (Never partner with a protection warrior)<BR/><BR/>It took me quite a bit of effort to slowly get my rating up with better classes and better players but guess what? Everybody else got better too. So my rating isnt exactly soaring. <BR/><BR/>People who are complaining about PvP being too easy are either being an elitist jerks or don't PvP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-30641897326026758612007-12-18T09:10:00.000-08:002007-12-18T09:10:00.000-08:00I think the main issue with making PvP a progressi...I think the main issue with making PvP a progression is that gear for PvP is often baseline. EVERY single competitive Arena team has the exact same gear. 5/5 Vengeful (or at least all Merciless/Vengeful, all Vindicator's, their Medallion, and a S2/S3 weapon. To get past a 1750 rating almost requires that gear-set.<BR/><BR/>In regard to that, I'd still like to see all the gear require a rating, but nothing higher than 1750 or so. I just don't want to see people with a 1300 rating running around in 4/5 Vengeful at the end of S3. People in 4/5 Vengeful and full honor-grind Vindicator's destroying people (because of gear) who are just starting in the 1500 bracket because those players didn't have the skill to raise themselves out of the beginner bracket. Even a group of good players who has the potential to raise themselves higher will have trouble against a team that severely outgears them.<BR/><BR/>I know NOT having rating requirements is supposed to make entry into the Arena system easier, but I suspect that in the long run, it doesn't help that much.<BR/><BR/>It's like the example mentioned last post - when the ratings reset, you have teams that should be 2000 rated facing teams that should be 1500 rated.<BR/><BR/>Given enough time, you're able to get really good gear in Arena/BG without being any good. I think that's why a lot of people like it so much. People say they like it because it's a lesser investment of time (which it is), but mainly it's just a more flexible investment of time. If you plan on getting an 1850-2000 rating, plan on spending almost as much time as a raider, IMO. Unless you go like 200-0, it's still a grind to get your rating up if you're winning 60-50, or 60-40.<BR/><BR/>As for the Priest - you SHOULDN'T be able to come into the Arenas and be competitive in blue/greens, just as you shouldn't be able to be a good raider in blue/greens without good gems and enchants and consumables. There is a full set of BG blues (with resilience) which I feel should be the step up point to getting Arena gear, not these people I see running around with Vindicator's gear and level 65 greens.<BR/><BR/>Also, having to work for you gear some more would breed better players, not people who AFK in AV or make 5v5 teams to play 10 losses each week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-41557104151665806812007-12-18T07:19:00.000-08:002007-12-18T07:19:00.000-08:00@RavThe issue at hand is not allowing different pa...@Rav<BR/><BR/><I>The issue at hand is not allowing different paths of progression (PvP vs PvE), but negating the ez-l00t to those who don't work for it.</I><BR/><BR/>Again the same tired old argument, just from a different poster name.<BR/><BR/>Which leads back to the same fundamental question: why would you care? What have they taken away from you or your gaming experience, or the enjoyment you had from overcoming raid challenges?Gwaendarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11736940983104193253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-601669360798123732007-12-18T06:34:00.000-08:002007-12-18T06:34:00.000-08:00I wish PVEers would be content with their rewards ...I wish PVEers would be content with their rewards and just leave PVPers alone. Now I do both.. I use to Raid with my Restoration Druid, and PVP with him also.. Mostly BGs and some Arena.. <BR/><BR/>PVP is very gear dependent and to make it more accessible to others the rewards are a little easier to get. BUT, they are PVP rewards.. it's good for PVPing.. You won't find a TOP DPSer or a TOP Healer wearing Arena gear and running Hyjal in that gear. It's crap for PVE.<BR/><BR/>PVE gear is good for PVEing.. which includes, farming, grinding REP, raiding, 5 man instances etc. And with doing those things, you stand a great chance of getting recipes, potions, gold, etc etc that PVPers can't get in BGs or Arena. <BR/><BR/>Blizzard doesn't want raiders to be king of everything. Before Arena, Raiders use to pretty much dominate PVP. And that's not what they want. <BR/><BR/>So again.. PVP is very gear dependent.. ie a player with S2 gear will normally kick the crap out of a player with blues and greens.. even if they are equally geared. So this allows PVPers to compete against each other more along the lines of skill and talent specs and having a good group, and less about gear.<BR/><BR/>PVP gear takes nothing away from Raiders.. unless you are just looking at the color of the name..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15891204036881229601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-43033172223091394442007-12-18T00:44:00.000-08:002007-12-18T00:44:00.000-08:00I think Michael is right. This somehow boils down ...I think Michael is right. This somehow boils down to: OMG they get the gear I have worked so hard for without effort. <BR/>Thats envy. Justified or not.<BR/><BR/>I think we should stop looking at everyone else all the time and look to our selves for a minute. <BR/><BR/>The real question is: Am I having fun?<BR/>If you are all is good - if not come to a conclusion why. <BR/>Stop bother to much about what other ppl gets. <BR/><BR/>For raiders I must say this. I do envy you. A while back I was a raider too, but guild and game mechanics makes it impossible to be a raider without being hardcore gamer. <BR/>Noone takes a player that can raid once a week tops and plays one or two nights more casually. And if they will - you wont get enough gear to go on to the next raid instance when the guild is ready.<BR/><BR/>This is a bit like a country. The hardcore gamers are the elitist conservatists that want to keep thier advantage and not let anyone else get close. And Blizzard is the government that tries to even the field for all to have a joyful experience.DaddyGamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07185458688650207753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-23793437695640918362007-12-17T19:28:00.000-08:002007-12-17T19:28:00.000-08:00The arena system is supposed to give people who do...The arena system is supposed to give people who don't want to play a million hours a week a chance at a reward.<BR/><BR/>If you play 1 hour a day, do you not deserve to ever see purples? Right now it takes about a month of BGs at an hour a day to get some S1 gear. Does that bug you too? Maybe if BGs dropped blues when I wtfpwned CCed trash Mages in the first room I would be able to see from your side of the story.Daniel J. Pritchetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09795997131830766224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-23357236508243884472007-12-17T12:41:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:41:00.000-08:00Michael,The issue at hand is not allowing differen...Michael,<BR/><BR/>The issue at hand is not allowing different paths of progression (PvP vs PvE), but negating the ez-l00t to those who don't work for it.<BR/><BR/>The pitfall all of us are failing to see is case 1 in PvE. As Keelie puts it:<BR/><BR/>"Person gets /gkicked, or does not have the skills or dedication to clear even Karazhan. Very little loot."<BR/><BR/>We are assuming the guild leadership is responsible and wants to progress cleanly. But usually Cat 1 person won't have any problem buying their way into a raid (with the new smaller raids, it's harder than before, tho) for a chance of getting something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-26641076739307493172007-12-17T12:01:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:01:00.000-08:00It's really apples and oranges. Almost every BG i...It's really apples and oranges. Almost every BG is made of of two PuGs that don't communicate very well with each other. All of the Kara runs I've done are the exact opposite.<BR/><BR/>And the Curator doesn't care how often you kill him and take his stuff. He'll still show up for the fight next week. If you don't reward people for just playing in AV, for example, eventually the side that loses the most just won't show up anymore. Then the other side will get tired of 30 min queues and quit signing up.<BR/><BR/>Frankly I think the bottom line to all this is that people who prefer to gear up in instances are upset that someone else can get a purple without doing the same thing they are doing. In the end, it's fine the way it is...the best PvP gear is from Arena, not BGs and in order to really compete in that environment, you'll have to enchant and gem in a way that makes your purples rather poor for PvE use. Somehow I doubt a Mage with 400 Resil and 600 spell damage is much good against Shade.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09656227278243346291noreply@blogger.com