tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post3191488618174603138..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: The Tyranny of SkillRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-56899639606263180592012-01-19T08:39:08.374-08:002012-01-19T08:39:08.374-08:00I usually lurk here, but i am drawn to discussion....I usually lurk here, but i am drawn to discussion. I dont find it completely either or situation. I am in a 2 day raiding guild that just finished with t13 on normal, and we are all happy with out progress. <br /><br />However, we all show up in time if signed, our returns from wipes are quick (quicker then some guilds i was in that were more progressed), we all admit when we make mistakes and discuss what can be done better. <br /><br />Not being in a top raiding does not mean you are raiding with idiot monkeys, which seems to be the opinion of some posters here. <br /><br />However, it does mean you have to monitor some people closely, especially after patches, and that you have to read up some EJ threads for classes other than your own. It also means a lot of us dont use macros or have the skill to make them etc. <br /><br />But we are happy with where we are (mostly), and the most important point, we are there to have a nice experience in a nice atmosphere, ie, shouting is not encouraged, discussion and suggestions are encouraged, comments like "you fail" or "if idiots could move" etc. are frowned on. <br /><br />I have also been in guilds with same level of progression which also suffered from the blame sickness etc. <br /><br />After my ramble, what i want to say is - pick what suits you and your guild culture, and try and draw people who are looking for it. <br /><br />I personally cannot stand shouting and recriminations, im in a guild that discourages such behaviour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-72004005756905989232012-01-19T00:14:40.110-08:002012-01-19T00:14:40.110-08:00What a very thoughtful and insightful blog. In Wra...What a very thoughtful and insightful blog. In Wrath I got a regular raiding spot in my guild's 2nd ten man team. We had a terrific RF and oddly we progressed much more quickly than the "A" team - full of all the best geared and more skillful guild members. <br /><br />The only difference I could discern was that we had a very amiable group who genuinely liked each other and we had a blast. I listened in on vent to the "A" team several times and it was acrimonious and full of "people just need to pull their socks up try harder" sort of comments. My GF filled a free spot one time in the "A" team raid and was so upset with how everyone spoke to everyone else esp her - she never raided with the guild again. <br /><br />Funnily, because the "B" team was progressing quite quickly - "A" team members pushed to get into the "B" team and the same sort of behaviours eventually poisoned "B" team and gradually all the inaugural "B" team members stopped turning up. <br /><br />Again, thank you for such an insightful and intelligent analysis. Welcome to my favourites list :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-38625483453142643832012-01-17T22:36:44.135-08:002012-01-17T22:36:44.135-08:00You know, I rather think this entire thread illust...You know, I rather think this entire thread illustrates my original point quite nicely.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-24238898890617999852012-01-17T13:42:50.224-08:002012-01-17T13:42:50.224-08:00@Vatec
WoW is just simply not an activity where n...@Vatec<br /><br />WoW is just simply not an activity where natural limitations come into play very much. If they do, it means you are sabotaging yourself by playing in a fashion which makes things harder on you than they have to be.<br /><br />I know of a deaf woman in a top 20 world guild who gets along just fine. I've seen older and younger players, people who have played video games their whole life, and people for whom WoW was their very first game all reach a world-competitive level. And it was not due to some kind of innate talent, it was due to attitude and a critical mass of knowledge.<br /><br />Unless a person is blind or somehow mentally handicapped (not intending this to sound as an insult), they are physically capable of improving their play to world level.<br />The only barriers are generally overcoming complacency in your performance, the drive to find information that will make you better, and possessing the humility to accept that you are meeting only a fraction of what you are capable of.<br /><br /><br />The people who complain that some people just don't have the talent for video games are the same people who generally claim that minor differences in class balance only matter for the bleeding edge. But you can't have it both ways. Both factors are ultimately so minor that they indeed only really matter at the bleeding edge, and class balance probably makes a bigger difference than reaction speed reflex time differences between human beings.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-79321978579352780282012-01-17T13:30:09.266-08:002012-01-17T13:30:09.266-08:00The best thing to do is make a friend. When you e...The best thing to do is make a friend. When you encounter someone better than you at your class, approach them with a genuine desire to learn. It might take a few tries, but by and large most people enjoy sharing knowledge because it makes them feel good about themselves as an expert.<br /><br />When you've learned and mastered what that person has to teach you, find someone else, maybe who is even better, and then pick their brain too. And so on and so forth.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-54248986332546968332012-01-17T11:46:16.850-08:002012-01-17T11:46:16.850-08:00As a relatively new player to the world of raiding...As a relatively new player to the world of raiding, how do you recommend finding a coach? I've found that currently you (well, maybe just me) can only get so far in moving up the guild skillset before there's a big barrier. The next tier of raiders expects more, but seems unwilling to help. I'd love to be completely dissected and put back together and be able to contribute more, I just don't know how.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-79638709223528313412012-01-17T11:33:24.852-08:002012-01-17T11:33:24.852-08:00On that we can agree, at least to an extent. Motiv...On that we can agree, at least to an extent. Motivation is a very important ingredient for becoming the best you can be. And being the best you can be can have a very positive impact on your success.<br /><br />Unfortunately, sometimes being the best you can be simply isn't good enough. Doesn't mean you shouldn't still try. But you're never going to be a great dancer if you can't hear the beat (I can't, BTW. The bass just sort of sounds like a blur, if that makes any sense.). <br /><br />Part of being an adult comes from actually recognizing limitations when you encounter them. If you beat your head against the same problem for ten years, odds are you're not going to suddenly magically discover the answer. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no answer.Vatecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-34104788678385905792012-01-17T10:38:58.833-08:002012-01-17T10:38:58.833-08:00Well, naturally I was referring strictly to perfor...Well, naturally I was referring strictly to performance in WoW.<br /><br />Trying to draw universal conclusions out of the point Rohan is trying to make is stretching things a bit farther than is really supported by evidence. And it is certainly a tangent that merely muddies the waters of the discussion, rather than being helpful in any way.<br /><br />For the record, in addition to being a raid leader of a prior world-level raiding guild, I am also a US Marine with a highly successful career.<br />It has been my experience that the kind of person who reaches for success and demands personal accountability of not only others but from themselves is the kind of person who consistently is successful in EVERYTHING they do, not merely a single narrow field as would be the case if it was purely due to good fortune in "talent".<br /><br />Does natural talent exist? Sure, but it's impact is overstated, and only really comes into play when you are already performing at the world-competitive level.<br />Of much bigger importance is motivation.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3002837438599368432012-01-17T08:58:20.770-08:002012-01-17T08:58:20.770-08:00You keep blaming it all on people not being willin...<i>You keep blaming it all on people not being willing to learn, I'll keep blaming it on people having unrealistic expectations of other people, and we'll both walk away from this conversation. </i><br /><br />I think you have hit on it, being that it is a social issue that transcends gaming.<br /><br />We used to talk about a thing called "talent." Now, we only accept its existence for the purpose of cheesy variety/game show combinations. People have different talents. Whether it is a product of genetics or nurture (most likely both) it exists. <br /><br />Some people are good at certain things with little effort. Some people will never be good at certain things, no matter how much effort they put into them. No matter how much I study, I'll never be a Bobby Fischer or Gary Kasparov. No matter how often I lift, I'll never be a world-class weight lifter (which doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing it or liking it.)<br /><br />On the other hand, in my profession (obscure litigation niche), I'm one of the world leaders. I have a natural talent for it. Being clever, highly stress resilient and a knack for analogies has given me an edge up on others that no amount of education can compete with.<br /><br />It's the way the world works. To feel better about ourselves, we like to act like talent doesn't exist -- it's all about the "effort" or "dedication" you put into something. I'm sorry, but it isn't. Some people are smarter than others, faster, stronger. Some people are below average in <i>all</i> of those. It doesn't mean that we should shame them for it or that they can't have a happy, successful life, but we shouldn't pretend that someone with natural talent isn't going to run circles around them.<br /><br />And if you are doing something that requires high performance at all times, then you should always pick the talented and dedicated over the untalented and dedicated.Phelpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270536870200063563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-13430825497646984352012-01-17T08:47:21.928-08:002012-01-17T08:47:21.928-08:00@Brekkie -
I think we have a communications disco...@Brekkie -<br /><br />I think we have a communications disconnect here. You're talking about WoW exclusively. And you may be correct, in the very limited context of WoW. I've never played WoW. I never could get past the cartoony graphics.<br /><br />I'm talking about the concept of "education" in the grander scheme of things, which I believe =also= applies to MMOs, including WoW.<br /><br />Tell you what: <br /><br />You keep blaming it all on people not being willing to learn, I'll keep blaming it on people having unrealistic expectations of other people, and we'll both walk away from this conversation. <br /><br />Because I simply have not had the same experiences with life, and MMOs, that you have had. And you very clearly have not had the same experiences that I have had. Be grateful.Vatecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-57299168493630385582012-01-17T03:24:34.486-08:002012-01-17T03:24:34.486-08:00@Vatec
You are simply, empirically, wrong. I'...@Vatec<br /><br />You are simply, empirically, wrong. I've never encountered a player who I coached and who was willing to TAKE coaching whose performance I wasn't able to dramatically improve.<br /><br />There ARE variables in human ability, but unless you are working with players who are somehow physically disabled, they only come into play at the absolute HIGHEST levels. 99% of players simply are not playing well enough to come close to their natural human limitations.<br /><br />The most useful question to ask is "Why is this person failing?" <br /><br />Are they failing to notice and respond in time to an encounter effect? Chances are...<br />-Their UI is non-optimal, distracting their brain processes with extraneous information<br />-Their keybindings are non-optimal, requiring they devote more attention to their finger movements than is necessary, at the detriment of attention paid to their screen.<br />-Their rotation is not automated enough, which could be a design, a mod, or a practice issue, or all three, once again to the detriment of attention.<br />-They are not taking enough advantage of the warning tools available to them. Perhaps they are responsive to audio-cues, but only use visual warning signs because they think that is all their is because that's what is default and "what everybody else uses".<br /><br />The list goes on endlessly. I'm only scratching the surface. <br />Any player willing to take coaching from a world class player could be taken completely apart and put back together and come out the end with a vastly increased level of performance.<br /><br /><br />Why do more people NOT do this?<br /><br />People do not escape to a fantasy world where they roleplay an epic hero because they like finding out that they are doing it wrong. Most people buy into the social dynamic that, as long as I am not the worst person in my regular group or "the one holding the group back", I am doing just fine.<br />And on top of that, a lot of this knowledge is extremely specialized, uncommonly known, and many simply do not know it is out there or where/who to get it from.<br /><br />It takes a very specific type of personality to never be satisfied with your own performance.<br />Most people do not have that personality. So they, like you, truly convince themselves that they are doing "their best", and leave it at that.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-61339193525315040412012-01-17T03:08:15.982-08:002012-01-17T03:08:15.982-08:00@Trix
The way most keyboards work is that they do ...@Trix<br />The way most keyboards work is that they do not actually send a signal to execute an operation when the key is PRESSED, they send the signal when the depressed key is RELEASED.<br /><br />What this means is you are having to do two physical actions instead of just one, you have to press the key, and then let go. And it also means that the extra time it takes to do so is essentially added to your latency and creating dead space in between ability usages.<br /><br />When top guilds evaluate a parse, one of the biggest things we look for is number of skill usages divided by time. This tends to be the biggest thing that varies when you have two players who are doing their rotation properly and generally making all the right decisions, but who are of different skill. Squeezing as many abilities out as possible, and riding the GCD as nearly as you are capable, is a big part of performance.<br /><br />So top players utilize a script which inverts this functionality of their keyboard. It makes it so that abilities fire when they key is PRESSED, rather than when it is press-released. This, combined with key spamming like you should be doing anyway, positively impacts output.<br /><br />The higher-end "Gaming Keyboards" like the G52, etc, tend to have this feature built into them, and it is honestly their only real advantage.<br /><br />You can find a script that will do this by just googling "Key press/release invert", or some variation of that.<br />It will be a script you run on your computer.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-7540383059766813862012-01-17T02:02:35.209-08:002012-01-17T02:02:35.209-08:00Im raiding with guild on pretty normal state ( 3-4...Im raiding with guild on pretty normal state ( 3-4 days week ). Our Raid Leader is very good player and skilled. He is really into theoryfracting and focusing to maxmize his dps. His attitude is spreading on our whole dps team. I think it is good for everyone when you can see it is possible to play better without high end gear and improve your gameplay.<br /><br />PS. Sorry for offtopic but could you explain this? <br /><br />Are you a melee DPS or a tank and you don't use a key press/release inverter script? Boom, vast improvement.Trixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-67509556430060022412012-01-16T21:20:53.210-08:002012-01-16T21:20:53.210-08:00You justify the problem of subpar peformance with ...You justify the problem of subpar peformance with problem of orginization. You didnt note more than just 2 types of skill-based players so its constantly hard to which players you are constantly reffering to. Please input much more details, much much more player types and much more plausible examples.Dzonatannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-85377132027677035592012-01-16T18:35:35.708-08:002012-01-16T18:35:35.708-08:00Sorry, Brekkie, no amount of education will make s...Sorry, Brekkie, no amount of education will make someone who is bad at math into a rocket scientist or someone with shaky hands into a surgeon.<br /><br />Similarly, no amount of practice or training will help you if you hit the wrong keys more frequently than most. There's a reason some people can type 100 words per minute but most people are limited to 40. No amount of practice or training will help you if you simply can't see the pale green ring on the pale green ground through the pale green smoke.<br /><br />Granted, the vast majority of the "skills" involved in a game like WoW or Rift are pretty basic. And it's true that most people will be able to master them or find adequate workarounds.<br /><br />But nonetheless, visual acuity, manual dexterity, and reflexes do play a part. And I can tell you this much: after twelve years of playing MMOs, I'm pretty darned sure exactly where my limitations lie.<br /><br />To put it another way: <br /><br />If every could do "it," they'd be doing "it." If they're not doing "it," you can either assume it's a flaw in their character, or you can accept that some of them are, in fact, doing their best and still can't quite do "it."Vatecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-44307623926195376362012-01-16T15:01:26.421-08:002012-01-16T15:01:26.421-08:00That's where you are wrong. Skill CAN be taug...That's where you are wrong. Skill CAN be taught. <br /><br />Are there natural limitations everyone has where they plateau due to things like varying decision making under pressure, speed of reflexes, and the latency of their connection? Sure, but 90% of the time there are even things you can teach/learn to make the person more effective in those areas too. <br />Almost no one in the entire game of millions of players is able to actually reach one of the hard caps on their skill in a particular area, and no one caps everything that is under their control.<br /><br />And the vast majority of the time the problem is more fundamental than that and can be solved with very basic coaching. Big examples include not realizing the min-maxing potential of various little-used or "I thought that was just for PVP/a different spec" class skills, or (this is a big one) having a self-sabotaging counter-productive UI/keybinding/mod use setup.<br /><br />Skill can ALWAYS be improved, and empirically from the exponential skill rise from aristocracy guilds to royalty guilds to top 5 world guilds, in the case of almost every single person who will ever read this blog, it can be improved by A LOT, often by some very basic fundamental changes.<br /><br />Are you a melee DPS or a tank and you don't use a key press/release inverter script? Boom, vast improvement.<br /><br />Are you using windows and not using Leatrix Latency Fix? Boom, 200ms less latency.<br /><br />Are you not binding /startattack to all your abilities? Boom, you are suddenly getting significantly more white swing damage on every fight with target switches, adds, or heavy movement.<br /><br />The list goes on. And much of the things that make up high performance simply amount to knowledge and preparation, not having superhuman reflexes. The contribution reflexes can make is largely limited by the GCD anyway.<br /><br />The thing that separates top world level performers from amateurs is mostly premeditated playstyle design strategy, practice, and a comprehensive understanding of every facet of their class and every other class and fight mechanic they interact with. <br /><br />All of which is simply knowledge, and knowledge can be imparted.<br /><br />It is rare for someone to fail through no fault of their own, and that can only happen if they perform every action they could have taken to mitigate and prevent that failure, which is simply hardly ever true in the non-bleeding edge level.<br />To believe otherwise is to not only accept, but to purposefully seek and invite mediocrity.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-15903618293260597362012-01-16T09:30:19.603-08:002012-01-16T09:30:19.603-08:00Something else people need to recognize: sometimes...Something else people need to recognize: sometimes skill =can't= be taught. Modern society fosters a rather naive belief that anything can be solved by the application of sufficient education. Unfortunately, this is simply not the case.<br /><br />Is it worth =trying= to teach people? Absolutely. But the idea that if they fail it has to be their fault is simply inaccurate. Sometimes people fail through no fault of their own. As long as both the teacher and the student recognize this possibility, practical growth is possible.Vatecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-11365661898410079372012-01-16T07:53:26.657-08:002012-01-16T07:53:26.657-08:002) This mindset only works when the social mobilit...2) This mindset only works when the social mobility of players between guilds is enough that players of similar skill levels are able to congregate together at around the plateau of their capabilities. As a result, it was extremely successful up through Wrath, but many guilds which espouse it in Cata have been dying. The new features of raiding (10/25-man equivalency, Guild Perks and reputation, increased stratification of difficulty modes combined with increased content nerfing, etc) have all moved things in the opposite direction: towards discouraging upward mobility of skill, and encouraging groups of players who aren't necessarily well matched to stick together anyway and just try to make things work.<br />"Guild Hopping" was given a really bad rap, mostly by frustrated recruitment officers, and perhaps justifiably so back in the days of difficult attunements and serious gear barriers (neither of which existed in Wrath), but was ultimately healthy in fostering an upward trend in increasing player skill and enabling motivated players to be able to place themselves with like-minded people.<br />Now, meritocracies are failing because the recruitment pools have decreased steadily in quality over as part of a long trend. This means that losses need to be replaced by inferior stock, often widening the skill inequality gap and destabilizing the productive group dynamic. <br /><br />The biggest lesson Recruitment officers in Royalty-but-not-world-first-level guilds have had to learn is that skill is not static, it can be taught. So you can compromise by simply identifying "potential" and then essentially using a sort of apprentice/buddy system to train recruits up. The Old Guard has been fading for a while, and since the game no longer inherently fosters upward trends in skill, guilds have to take responsibility for doing so themselves.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-82684223724226319852012-01-16T07:53:13.182-08:002012-01-16T07:53:13.182-08:00Obligatory Context:
I am a retired Royalty guild R...Obligatory Context:<br />I am a retired Royalty guild Ret Paladin. I was with my (now disbanded as of the beginning of Cata) guild from Ulduar (US 12th Firefighter pre-nerf, US 15th Alone in the Dark), through ICC (Heroic mode kills in World top 15, and culminating the tier with a US 15th Lich King). I was raid leader for FL through ToGC (US 8th Anub). FL Raided 5 days/week, typically maintained a bench of around 5-10 people, depending on the number of Apps, and was a progression-oriented guild.<br /><br />Ok, now that's over with, and you have some insight into where I'm coming from...<br /><br />There are two points I want to make regarding your viewing "the Tyranny of Skill" in a negative light.<br /><br />1) This philosophy, like most, can be handled in both a negative/destructive, and a positive/productive way. Which effect it has is mostly determined by the attitudes and actions of the guild's leaders.<br />It sounds like your merged guild suffered more from the former, which is unfortunate, but doesn't tell the whole story.<br /><br />There is a reason why a Personal Accountability mindset is so successful. If handled correctly, it starts a positive feedback loop, and your success (success measured in terms of progression as a group. Let's put arguments about whether that is the most important measure of "success" aside for now, because they only muddy the waters with arguments belonging elsewhere.) will increase exponentially. The reason it does this is because it provides a negative incentive for complacency, particularly when, as brought up by Kalon, there isn't a destabilizingly large skill inequality between the best players in the guild and the worst players in the guild. This is because no one wants to be the one to fail, and because a meritocracy encourages active competition, not only with peers but with yourself and your own previous performance.<br />In an environment where it is agreed that the strat is at fault, or the raid composition at fault, or lack of practice at fault, complacency is seductive, contagious, and addicting. It is a big reason why players who used to be by far the superior performer in their entire guild apply to a bleeding edge guild and find themselves completely out of their depth. They have spent months resting on their laurels and not challenging themselves or needing to challenges themselves. Even if they DID fail before, it would have just been viewed as evidence that there was clearly some other issue than personal performance, because CLEARLY if the guild's best player was failing it cannot be a performance issue!<br /><br />Ironically, when a guild has a Personal Performance mindset, 90% of the time they are correct, and it makes the other 10% of the time when there genuinely IS a strategy or a composition or a familiarity issue MUCH easier to recognize and then correct because the signs become isolated from variables.Brekkienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-48886016206818383832012-01-14T21:45:33.005-08:002012-01-14T21:45:33.005-08:00"And if someone has a change of RL circumstan..."And if someone has a change of RL circumstances and can suddenly only make 70% raids, you drop them and hope you can find a replacement?<br />"<br /><br />Sadly, yes. And it happens all the time. And if it doesn't happen fast enough then the other members get pretty pissed off, because that person is effectively wasting 24-28 other people's time. In Skunkworks what usually happens for most raiders is this:<br /><br />1. Lifestyle change in a 4+ raid/week guild forces you to stop raiding so much, but you still want to raid at a high level<br />2. Join Skunkworks, try the 2 raid/week thing. <br />3. Find out that lifestyle change is kicking your ass even more than it was before and then move on.<br /><br />In a lot of ways, skunkworks is the halfway house of raiding - it's a step towards quitting altogether. Very few people quit Skunkworks and then go back to more hardcore raiding; I think I know of 2 in the last 2.5 years. But I know tons who are simply not playing WoW at all, including the GM, every officer I started with and every second-generation officer I started with save one.<br /><br />As I said - this method of being completely brutal, serious and uncompromising on things like recruiting, attendance, personal performance and the like is one option. This means that if someone wants to reroll no matter how awesome they were as their prior toon you treat them as a trial at best (if they want to sign up as a tank, that might not be an option, frex). That means that if people need to take a break for a long while due to parental leave or a long vacation they may have to re-earn their raid spot back. Nothing is earned forever. <br /><br />And that works when everyone buys in. When everyone gears to raid, cares a lot about progression and playing at a high level and doesn't want to spend time wiping because gimpy mcidiot doesn't know what the mechanics of the fight is. <br /><br />However, it also doesn't work with couples. It doesn't work with friends. It doesn't work for a large chunk of the people who want to raid and don't care about looking at EJ to optimize their stuff. <br /><br />It absolutely does not work for everyone.<br /><br />I think this style absolutely can work for a lot more guilds than are currently doing things. I think a lot of guilds that raid 3 or 4 times a week could easily scale back to 2 and suffer no actual performance loss. I think a lot of guilds with a bench of 40 people could cut that to 30 and be better off for it. But it won't work for everyone. <br /><br />For me, it's a no-brainer. I hate it when other people waste my time; my time is limited and if I dedicate a 4-hour block of time to play, I expect others will understand how hard that is on me and my family and will similarly be there. I expect that they will not need their hand held for every fight and will watch things. I expect that they'll shut up on vent when we go to srs bsns mode. I expect that we won't screw around on trash for 30 min because the tank went afk to smoke and his girlfriend tells everyone to wait on them. Those are the things that destroy raiding for me, personally.<br /><br />I don't claim that it's the only way to do it. But I do claim that it's a perfectly good way for quite a few people to do it.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-73977879485484825342012-01-14T09:05:41.481-08:002012-01-14T09:05:41.481-08:00To me, it all goes back to the bowling analogy. I...To me, it all goes back to the bowling analogy. If you just like to bowl, then go bowling whenever you have enough people and feel like it. If you sign up for a league, though, then you are expected to make the game, on time, every week. There are 24+ more people relying on you to show up. Common decency requires it, if nothing else.<br /><br />From there, it all depends on the team. If you are playing on a scratch league, they expect you to roll 200+ every game. If you are on a handicap league, then that is where you are, but your team is still going to get pissed when you roll 50 pins under your average.Phelpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270536870200063563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-88032665967442813502012-01-14T08:51:32.665-08:002012-01-14T08:51:32.665-08:00Ultimately, it's less about skill than it is a...Ultimately, it's less about skill than it is about unity of purpose. Problems arise when you have players who think that standard A is good enough, and a group of players who think that people should be held to the higher Standard B. <br /><br />A guild that expects to clear normal modes within a month of content release is going to have trouble with a player who expects to clear normal content week one. Likewise, a guild that expects to clear normal content week one will have trouble with a player who performs at a level below that expectation.<br /><br />People need to know their place. They need to have realistic expectations of their own abilities, the abilities of the other raiders, and the commitment of the raid group. The greater the gap between a player's expectations and reality, the more likely there is going to be a schism.The Renaissance Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15218269024132171600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-48227518206965386832012-01-13T13:45:05.677-08:002012-01-13T13:45:05.677-08:00What Kalon (and Rohan in the original post) is out...What Kalon (and Rohan in the original post) is outlining works, and works well.. as long as the leadership is willing to hold the line all the way. You have two weeks of unexpected 70% attendance? No more promised raid slot. Not keeping up? Sorry, you're out. I honestly admire the heck out of a team like Serious Casual. You not only need a solid leadership with a strong vision, but 20+ other people who are okay with, say, missing a week of raids because you only recruit the best.<br /><br />The problem most of us have with this -- I certainly did -- is holding the line. Beloved guildie who is usually very prompt is taking a night class and will be 15m late every raid now? Do I hold the line but face bad feelings and recruiting for that spot, or do I be nice and accomodating? Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but for the most part accomodating won. And then six months later you look up and realize that you've had to make some kind of special dispensation for half your raid team and you are probably never going to be the tight knit juggernaut of time-limited raiding you once desired.<br /><br />But that's okay. I agree with Spinks' comment: what does success mean? Serious Casual is certainly successful! For me, though being generous and playing with people I liked turned out to be more important than having a meritocracy. It's easy to fall into the teeth-grinding "must progress faster" craze and god knows I've done it myself, but what it comes down to is.. is it important enough to you to tow the line? To make the tough calls? To tell someone they're not good enough? To tell the team you're not raiding because you haven't found a good tank replacement yet? It's not a tyranny of skill, per se, it's.. we're creating our own subjugation by expecting things beyond what we're willing to do.Liorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16576208014734221084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-51143504255684834702012-01-13T12:03:54.234-08:002012-01-13T12:03:54.234-08:00"This is the tyranny of skill. It’s hard to a..."This is the tyranny of skill. It’s hard to argue with someone like Kalon, hard to argue with his success. He spends less time raiding and is more successful than I am."<br /><br />You've defined success in a very narrow way, bearing in mind you just wrote a blog post explaining how that attitude pretty much killed your guild and enjoyment in WoW. <br /><br />But sure, collecting a group of players who are able to be on at exactly the same times, all have exactly the same goals, and all play at a similar level is one 'solution' to raiding. There's nothing specially clever about it, although props to anyone who can manage the organisation and finding the right minded players.<br /><br />But it's not a solution that can work for everyone because there simply aren't enough players to fuel a) the eventual turnover rate and b) who all want to play at the most unforgiving of levels (or as he puts it 'you force the culture of personal accountability' etc). So selling it as the solution to everyone's raiding issues ever is misleading -- the best you can say is that it can work for some people. Gevlon's various schemes are also often well thought through also -- like his current one with the really large guild where you just keep throwing random players against the content and don't try to keep a fixed roster.<br /><br />But I think doing the best you can with the players you have and building an atmosphere in which people aren't always two failed raids away from quitting in a huff is also a form of success. And I'm more interested in guild organisation strategies that can achieve that.<br /><br />Hardmode raiding, as you say, is a solved problem. I just don't find it an interesting one because I'm not that achievement orientated and don't want to play in that kind of guild.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-36601602000218958542012-01-13T12:01:35.386-08:002012-01-13T12:01:35.386-08:00It's a values thing.
I didn't play Little...It's a values thing.<br /><br />I didn't play Little League baseball, either. I have no desire to waste my time seeking "achievement" in an activity that is essentially meaningless. I have enough difficulty finding "success" in the real world, thanks.<br /><br />Kalon's approach is right for him. He finds value in the teamwork and the success. Good for him. But his approach is not valid for everyone.<br /><br />Some people have different priorities. Some people would rather have fun in a casual way, without all the pressure and recriminations.<br /><br />The good news is, most of us probably realize that and wouldn't dream of wasting our time, or theirs, by applying to a guild like Kalon's.Vatecnoreply@blogger.com