tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post5115345458515479970..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: A Blueprint for Endgame: Raiding GearRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-24565354061507860152010-04-09T11:56:25.100-07:002010-04-09T11:56:25.100-07:00As a former 25 man raider in a 25 man progression ...As a former 25 man raider in a 25 man progression guild (The same one as Coriel) who now only runs 10 mans I have pretty mixed feelings about all this (not all points are interrelated or in order):<br /><br />1. This plan would kill every 10 man group in our guild and I would have to leave my guild in order to continue 10 man raiding.<br /><br />2. It generally seems to be designed to cater to a specific niche of player ie. 25 man raiders who find playing 10 mans repetitive but feel peer pressure.<br /><br />3. I think all the reasons that 25 man rewards are better than 10 man rewards are BS except one. I think the point someone made about Blizzard not wanting 25 man geared players blitzing 10 man content is interesting. I think the game would be much better served by making the gear equal and tuning for similar difficulty but making a final attractive award (a distinctive mount or award or title) drop from the final boss. The trick would be that if you accepted the reward on 10 man you could never get the 25 man equivalent and vice versa.<br /><br />4. I also like the idea that specific BIS items (trinkets usually) drop from unusual places that require revisiting content to get. This might be expanded to include, for example, unusual best in slot single-use enchant scrolls that would draw players back occasionally.Dontatsunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-63855047863054299822010-04-08T11:42:19.558-07:002010-04-08T11:42:19.558-07:00I am totally against this plan.
Other than makin...I am totally against this plan. <br /><br />Other than making 10 man versions into a gear ghetto it doesn't encourage good play, 25 man hard mode tier 1 is equivalent to the end tier of 10 man loot. Any 10 man guild pugging 25 man content completely negates 10 man content.<br /><br />What Blizzard should do is "open" up the content, let the 25 and 10 man dungeons share a difficulty such that 10 man require a much more efficient use of your guild and 25s less so, in effect switch the roles round so that a 10 man team beats the content by being ridiculously efficient while a 25 can slightly carry people. The issue of lacking buffs etc can be easily solved by correctly balancing classes such that 2 healers + 2 tanks that don't overlap leads to a solid group. <br /><br />On farming multiple tiers, its dull tbh, what we want is 2+ different dungeons per tier so that we have a different feel and look. Aim for say 10-15 bosses per tier spread over 2-4 instances and you have a good width to allow farming without using old content. I even think that old trinkets and gear should be opened up to crafting 2+ tiers below.<br /><br />Meaning what we see is the following structure for an expansion:<br />ILvl : Tier Levels<br />.+0..: Dungeon....:<br />.+0.5: Dungeon HC.:<br />.+1..: Raid Tier 1<br /><br />---- Wave 2 ---- <br />.+0.5: Dungeon T2<br />.+1..: Dungeon HC T2<br />.+2..: Raid Tier 2<br /><br />---- Wave 3 ----<br />.+1.5: Dungeon T3<br />.+2..: Dungeon HC T3<br />.+3..: Raid Tier 3<br /><br />---- Wave 4 ----<br />.+2.5: Dungeon T4<br />.+3..: Dungeon HC T4<br />.+4..: Raid Tier 4 <br /><br />At Each level the HC dungeons released offer gear a tier below the current raid, setup to offer interesting pieces to the raiders and to fill in holes such as trinkets 2+ tiers below the raid level. Heroic modes are a tier above the raid tier however do not offer a full gear set, they offer the filler slots like Sunwell filling in an 8 piece set.<br /><br />Raiding is focused on the current tier + heroics to fill in any slots they need. Gearing up follows the path of Tier -1 + dungeons / heroics with badges to get to that level. The incentive to keep running lower level dungeons and raids is in their unique crafting elements. So a tier 1 crafted or tier piece may look like:<br /><br />Heigan's Vestments - Requires 1 tier token + 1 Heigan's remnant + 2 T1 orbs.<br /><br />Yoggie Bear's Picnic Basket - Requires 1 Yoggie tentacle + 2 Yoggie orbs + 1 T1 orb<br /><br />You can buy the major gear without farming old instances, but if you want the best stuff you have to take the best from all previous tiers to make it.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18415648946567949701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-14271100425684209822010-04-07T07:50:56.776-07:002010-04-07T07:50:56.776-07:00@Orthien -
If 10-man and 25-man instances share a...@Orthien -<br /><br />If 10-man and 25-man instances share a lockout, I see no reason why they couldn't share loot. Rohan doesn't want that discussion here, but it is something to consider.<br /><br />RJ makes a good point, though, about "Farming Arthas to kill Heroic AN". That DOES feel weird.<br /><br />The problem with "Normal X Loot = Heroic X-1 Loot" is what we saw with Ulduar and ToC. No one (in my guild) wanted to go back and do Ulduar hardmodes because they were harder (*gasp*) but didn't provide superior rewards.Dorgolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12936803721440329897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-84887775845910365352010-04-07T07:20:48.318-07:002010-04-07T07:20:48.318-07:00I just wanna say that both your suggestion posts a...I just wanna say that both your suggestion posts are awesome and I 100% subscribe to these ideas.<br /><br />lets hope we'll see an imlpementation of this in the actual game.Quicksilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02514588622395952812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-80033215300989854252010-04-06T21:16:48.665-07:002010-04-06T21:16:48.665-07:00I'm not so sure how I feel about your vision o...I'm not so sure how I feel about your vision of the game's future. It seems to me that much of the content in these last two posts stems from your earlier post "Optional", and are of the opinion that it is up to the developers to save the players from themselves' (if I'm way off base here, then I've misjudged the motivation, but not the goal).<br /><br />I had a much longer post written out but decided to nix it because this is for commenting on your thoughts, not spending paragraphs going on about mine. I think the what I'd like to say though is that what is best for the game, may not be best for the community, and vice versa. Some of your ideas seems to have your intentions in the right place, but (opinion here) I don't think they have everyone and everything's interests in mind.AtomicJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07466128956274005215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3683308954145515242010-04-06T20:21:41.636-07:002010-04-06T20:21:41.636-07:00I like the whole set of ideas your having so far f...I like the whole set of ideas your having so far for Cataclysm bar the gear system for raids. Your idea would completly kill off 10man raiding if it shares a lockout and gives a lower quality verson of the 25man gear then no guild that could get more than 10 people would ever run.<br />I enjoy running 10mans more than 25s but if I had to only pick on for the week it would be the one that gave the more respect in the community, better gear and the only one with legendarys/rare drops.Orthiennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-89020232674029407592010-04-06T16:21:28.977-07:002010-04-06T16:21:28.977-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-22001612762735985542010-04-06T15:30:03.099-07:002010-04-06T15:30:03.099-07:00I don't see how what I'm saying goes again...I don't see how what I'm saying goes against what you want. At no point am I saying you can't go back a Tier to farm; in fact I support that. I'm just saying that by making the Heroics of the previous Tier SUPERIOR to the Normal of the current Tier, you've made it so that progression is actually BACKWARDS. You're farming the <b>current</b> Tier in order to progress in the <b>previous</b> Tier. This is pretty ludicrous, and is backwards of the way it should be. You farm old content to make the new content easier.<br /><br />I don't have a problem with your concept, I just have a problem with your values. If it only went up by one Tier to go from Normal to Heroic, then it's fine.<br /><br />Basically, once you move to Tier 2, you can farm Tier 1 Heroic to start getting the same level of gear as you have in Tier 2 Normal, meaning that not only will players have extra chances to fill in the blanks in their gear, but you can move to Tier 2 Heroic a little faster. It makes doing Tier 1 while you're working on Tier 2 a bonus, instead of mandatory in order to do progression.RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10492971146589461692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-90657421559083514502010-04-06T14:46:34.415-07:002010-04-06T14:46:34.415-07:00RJ, the problem with that is that I want two outco...RJ, the problem with that is that I want two outcomes:<br /><br />1. Only do an instance once per week.<br />2. Have a set difficulty for the entire instance, rather than per-fight difficulty switches (like Ulduar and ICC).<br /><br />I don't really see a way to combine those two without going back a tier. If you've just cleared Normal Tier 2, starting Heroic Tier 2 would mean that you can't farm Normal. So you'll end up with this weird thing where you can't properly farm the instance you just beat and progress at the same time. <br /><br />It's possible to do this if every Tier consisted of multiple dungeons (a la SSC and TK). Then you could do SSC-Normal, TK-Normal, SSC-Heroic, TK-Heroic. But insisting that every tier have at least two raid dungeons might be excessive.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-88506162659849080782010-04-06T14:34:53.730-07:002010-04-06T14:34:53.730-07:00I was using tier not in the literal Tier 10 sense,...I was using tier not in the literal Tier 10 sense, but in a generic tier of strength. I apologize for the confusion.<br /><br /><br />The problem, like I said, is that it turns progression right around, which is clearly not what Blizzard is going to do. How can you really call it progression if players are, say, grinding Arthas for loot so they can do Heroic Anub and get better loot? Not to mention it's demoralizing. "Oh man, we just killed the biggest bad guy in Northrend. Too bad this shit is weaker then the stuff his minions in the last tier drops."<br /><br />It really should be that the previous Tier's Heroic is equal to the current Tier's Normal. This makes doing the previous tier as farming actually plausible. Else you're actually farming the <b>current</b> Tier in order to progress in the <b>previous</b> one.<br /><br />I would argue that the criss-crossing nature you're proposing would lead to more burnout, if not lower morale in general.RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10492971146589461692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-17841213748614085152010-04-06T13:17:21.651-07:002010-04-06T13:17:21.651-07:00i don't like the idea of them all sharing the ...i don't like the idea of them all sharing the same lock out.<br /><br />i have 2 suggestion though.<br />1. there are separate lockouts for heroic/ non-heroic.<br />2.you can only receive loot form a boss once a week.<br /><br /> i like number 2 the best it destroy the need to farm the instant at multiple lvls. but keeps the pugging alive (at least if the bring in LFR rewards)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-40807611814355871332010-04-06T10:40:21.765-07:002010-04-06T10:40:21.765-07:00I really like the idea of one lockout for both 10 ...I really like the idea of one lockout for both 10 and 25 raids. When I was in a 25-man guild it didn't make sense because only some of the raiders could or would make the 10-mans. Participating in both 10s and 25s meant running on a treadmill and raiding 4-5 days a week to stay competitive.<br /><br />What I don't particularly like in your system though is that heroic is an item level ahead of the next level of content (T1 heroic is better than T2 normal), because it makes people go back and do older content, albeit with a greater level of difficulty.<br /><br />It seems counterintuitive to gear up for heroic T2 content by doing heroic T1 instead of doing normal T2. For a guild with a limited raid schedule, it seems there would be the risk of falling out of practice with T2 boss fights by the time heroic T1 is conquered.Hanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12020803566446071455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-30418830760854577092010-04-06T10:36:27.431-07:002010-04-06T10:36:27.431-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-74020837251652108422010-04-06T09:46:04.488-07:002010-04-06T09:46:04.488-07:00One of the reasons I got fed up of TOC was that th...One of the reasons I got fed up of TOC was that the difficulty jump between normal and heroic (25) was pretty steep for my guild. <br /><br />It sounds like what you want to create is a raiding scenario where each of the following is a (equal) step up:<br />Raid 1 Normal<br />Raid 2 Normal<br />Raid 3 Normal + Raid 1 Hard<br />Raid 4 Normal + Raid 2 Hard<br /><br />One problem I see is that most encounters are a combination of gear difficulty and execution difficulty. Gear difficulty decreases over time as we gear up, execution difficulty is less affected by gear lvls.<br /><br />Blizzards model for some of the hard modes has been to pile on gear difficulties for some bosses (hodir), while execution difficulties for others (mimiron). Clearly over time some of the difficulties go away (OS10+3)<br /><br />Tuning to make your raid system work is going to be difficult.<br /><br />Also making each raid only 6 ilvls different is also going to make each raid last much less time. The world first 25 HC lich king would have come much faster if ICC was tuned to 238/251/264<br /><br />Implicitly Blizzards model has been to give a few easy bosses in each raid to slowly gear people up, so that the later bosses can be defeated by more and more people over time. <br /><br />The way I think about your different classes of guilds (royalty, aristocracy, etc) is that they have an implicit ilvl difference that they can add. What this could imply is that an ilvl 200 geared royalty guild = ilvl 206 aristocracy = ilvl 213 gentry. What this also means is that you need a raid which provides all of these different classes of guild some challenge for each of your raids.<br /><br />So in your example, if royalty guilds get the tier 4 (25HC) gear, the next raid 25HC must challenge them. It also means that if the aristocracy guilds get their hands on tier 4 gear, would they be able to do the next raid 25 HC?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-21877693425049583982010-04-06T09:07:34.210-07:002010-04-06T09:07:34.210-07:00@RJ, it's not two tiers exactly. A step is 6 i...@RJ, it's not two tiers exactly. A step is 6 ilevels, so half a current tier. The weird "backwards play" is the very feature that I want.<br /><br />Progression goes:<br /><br />Tier X Normal<br />Tier X-1 Heroic<br />Tier X HeroicRohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-84481822126395009332010-04-06T08:58:45.303-07:002010-04-06T08:58:45.303-07:00Let me take a wild guess as to which raids your gu...<i>Let me take a wild guess as to which raids your guild does... /ponder :)</i><br /><br />I actually don't raid at all, neither 10- nor 25-man.<br /><br />But I have been reading the QQ about the fact that, for example, 10-mans simply don't get the special rewards that 25-mans get, like the legendaries and the special mounts. And of course this is because Blizzard doesn't want to encourage 25-man-geared raiders to faceroll through 10-man content and make those rewards commonplace. In addition, evidently way back during the TBC-Wrath transition, there were people who were all like "just let us see the content in 10-mans and we won't want anything more" and now that we have a 10-man raiding track, they're like "give us everything that the 25-man raiders get!"<br /><br />So, I think that the best option to solve the special stuff and the overgeared 25-man raiders problem would be to acknowledge that there are two ways to approach raiding: as a challenging commitment as you attempt to progress through the bosses, and as a place to have fun, presumably with people you like and have fun with. <br /><br />We have already had discussions on guilds, and how there are social guilds that raid, and raiding guilds that socialize. The difference between 10- and 25-man I'm proposing is pretty close to the difference between those two types of guilds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-72411489313318809772010-04-06T08:19:30.630-07:002010-04-06T08:19:30.630-07:00#1 - I like the loot tier settings you listed. Hav...#1 - I like the loot tier settings you listed. Having hardmode loot in Tier X be better than normal loot in Tier X+1 is a good thing.<br /><br />#2 - I see two ways of handling the hardmode / normal mode raid locks.<br /><br />Option 1 would be what you have listed - every player has a 10 man AND a 25 man lock available. They choose whether they are doing normal or hard.<br /><br />Option 2 would be to make the lock exclusiving to 10 or 25, but allow a both a Normal and hardmode lockout for each raid size. <br /><br />Both options have their pros and cons, and I'm not sure which I prefer.Dorgolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12936803721440329897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-84137469684234423002010-04-06T06:42:23.534-07:002010-04-06T06:42:23.534-07:00Would the system used in Ulduar for "Hard Mod...Would the system used in Ulduar for "Hard Modes" be the best way about ensuring one lockout attempt? <br />Or was that system flawed to a certain degree? If so, how? And what could/should be changed for how it worked?<br /><br />@ Phelps<br />I really don't know the whole debate for 10-man and 25-man gear differences - other than that if they had the same gear, the motivations to do 25-man raids becomes considerably less.<br />In regards to Naxx, I wouldn't say that N10 was "considerably" harder. Marginally, yes. But not by leaps and bounds. I found that there was just less room for error. And that "issue" didn't happen so much with later tiers of raiding. Bliz has sorted out a good part of their scaling issues between 10 & 25.Darthregishttp://waywardinitiative.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-17528833591021034702010-04-06T06:24:17.878-07:002010-04-06T06:24:17.878-07:00I love your ideas. I hate how Blizzard killed Uld...I love your ideas. I hate how Blizzard killed Ulduaar with their 4 Tier TOC. Raiding was much more enjoyable when guilds had to run 2 instances, one for loot and the other for progression. I loved running Karazhan to get gear for Serpentshrine, etc. I thought that method worked very well and I hate that they went away from it as it was a nice combination of loot and challenge without the repetition.<br /><br />This is a little off topic but one change I would love to see is removing the "weekly raid lockout" and replacing it with a "weekly boss loot lockout". That means you could run an instance 100 times a week but you could only get loot the first time. To fit in your progression/loot instance concept they could do this only for loot instances. This is the only way I can see a "Looking for Raid" tool working as I'd never join a PUG Raid if it meant I risked getting locked out from the higher end bosses. This would also help with the situation when a raider leaves unexpectedly an hour into an instance. Most groups disband at this point because most quality players won't join a raid that limits their ability to get gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-8825745769923771372010-04-06T04:21:07.176-07:002010-04-06T04:21:07.176-07:00Great follow up from yesterday!Great follow up from yesterday!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-78445878439660716522010-04-06T04:06:39.718-07:002010-04-06T04:06:39.718-07:00Phelps - It's pretty simple, really. It's ...Phelps - It's pretty simple, really. It's without a doubt harder to control 24 other people, especially in some of the more unique fights in the game. So with this in mind, if you could be playing with 9 other people, or with 24 other people, but literally have the exact same things drop from the boss, then what would you be running?<br /><br /><br />But with regards to your proposal, I don't think I like the suggestion that Heroic should be giving 2 tiers higher then Normal. It starts to make for some weird backwards play, when guilds begin using the <b>new</b> content as farm material so they can progress in <b>last tier's</b> Heroic mode for the superior gear. If anything, Heroic should just be a head-start on next tier's normal gear, and so only be one tier ahead.RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10492971146589461692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-21612954536239828472010-04-06T04:01:07.187-07:002010-04-06T04:01:07.187-07:00It would make more sense to me if, say, there were...<i>It would make more sense to me if, say, there were no 10-man heroic modes, allowing Blizzard to firmly say that 10-man raiding is NOT serious business and thus more for raiding casually with actual friends or something.</i><br /><br />Let me take a wild guess as to which raids your guild does... /ponder :)<br /><br />I personally don't do hard modes. Neither 10 nor 25, so it would not affect me. But making 10-man 'kiddie raids' would be a step backwards from what was the whole idea of having the 2 options.<br /><br />*If* I would do hard modes, and would be limited to only one each week, I would definitely go to 10-man. I just find it more engrossing, my personal contribution more a factor than when I do (normal) 25man... which actually I do more often than 10 man, sadly.<br /><br />Let each have their share according to personal preference, please. Don't get your elitism in my enjoyment!<br /><br /><br /><br />That aside, a common lock out would probably kill 10-man pugging... I would not miss that much if there was something else to do, albeit having my alts 'better' geared than my main (even if the later have progressed further in) would be hilarious!Pekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16279779881317201824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-36981129921728114392010-04-06T00:05:05.551-07:002010-04-06T00:05:05.551-07:00I do like the extension of the "Heroic" ...I do like the extension of the "Heroic" tag for gear. It seems quite a simple solution to the problem of the proliferation of gear, though undoubtedly people will be complaining about the homogenization of gear and gear models.<br /><br />I'm much more concerned with the idea of keeping the 10- and 25-man normal and heroic modes all on a separate lockout. For one thing, it would totally destroy raid pugging completely. Also, we need to consider the reason that Blizzard let people run both versions whenever they wanted was to give people the option to run whatever they wanted. It's just that we players do crazy things, and thus when one progression guild started running four versions of ToGC a week, so every other guild that wanted to compete had to too.<br /><br />It would make more sense to me if, say, there were no 10-man heroic modes, allowing Blizzard to firmly say that 10-man raiding is NOT serious business and thus more for raiding casually with actual friends or something. Then we can have 25-man normal and 25-man heroic share a lockout, so that the sort of players who Blizzard has to save from letting themselves run four versions of the same raid in one week have no reason to do the 10-man and will have to choose between the normal or the heroic modes of the 25-man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-51504182753054824192010-04-05T22:04:21.823-07:002010-04-05T22:04:21.823-07:00I like all the points you made... also where do yo...I like all the points you made... also where do you think "new heroics" like Trial of the Champion or the 3 ICC wings fit into the tier system?<br /><br />I like the place they are in now, dropping useful stuff for people who can't raid all the time, while at the same time dropping nothing that is better than what raids (even raids a patch behind them) drop.Hairymuppethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08676820269841090509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-19919041591034049242010-04-05T21:58:47.115-07:002010-04-05T21:58:47.115-07:00Let's just take it as a given that 25-mans wil...Let's just take it as a given that 25-mans will have better gear than 10-mans, as in the current setup.<br /><br />It's not really something I am interested in debating at the moment. Any more comments arguing that point will be deemed "off-topic" and deleted.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.com