tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post5420426182349240098..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: Nerfs and Listening to the HardcoreRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3286253525119011032012-02-01T02:36:11.423-08:002012-02-01T02:36:11.423-08:00I think the reactions were caused by a lot of peop...I think the reactions were caused by a lot of people taking this personally - I can say I did. I eventually realized the nerfs are quite inconsequential but Blizzard seemed to say the raiders were either good enough to not be challenged by the bosses or needed the challenge decreased in order not to quit, i. e. people who thought they liked challenge were mistaken.<br /><br />I wish they acknowledged the people who are not good enough to clear DS HC by this time but do not want to feel to be carried. I understand telling a customer they're wrong is not easy but I think they could have done better than saying we deluded ourselves into thinking we're better than we actually are.Imakulatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18327043103775428011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-49381673288663391472012-01-27T18:04:50.536-08:002012-01-27T18:04:50.536-08:00Falrei, your argument is nonsense.
The 800K loss ...Falrei, your argument is nonsense.<br /><br />The 800K loss in Q3 included at least 400K (and probably a bit more) loss in China, which got Cataclysm on July 12. They started with 4.1.<br /><br />Moreover, even the western losses in Q3 cannot be attributed to nerfs. One could just as well attribute them to raiders who failed to clear T11 before 4.2 and just gave up. Quits are a lagging indicator; it may take a while for a guild to fully fail or for an individual player's hope to be extinguished.<br /><br />And even with the nerfs in 4.2 (which really only hit a couple of months in, with the blanket nerf), the heroic 5 mans were still as hard as before. Grinding them just wasn't fun for many players, even after the LotD buff.<br /><br />You hardcores (or hardcore wannabes) are desperate to avoid the obvious -- that Blizzard tried to cater to you, and it was an unprecedented disaster for the game.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-5429165491308588472012-01-27T06:41:39.044-08:002012-01-27T06:41:39.044-08:00I think proof of Blizzard's 'reactions'...I think proof of Blizzard's 'reactions' to revert what they started in Cataclysm will be in the numbers released for Q4 in February.<br /><br />Taken from MMO Champion:<br /><br />Q1 2011 - 600,000 subscribers lost<br />Q2 2011 - 300,000 subscribers lost<br />Q3 2011 - 800,000 subscribers lost<br /><br />Q1 shows when Cataclysm was released. Q3 should be just after Firelands was released.<br /><br />Currently, all I gain from these numbers is that there's been MORE people departing from WoW AFTER Blizzard's decision to start catering to casuals and not the hardcore raiders with the major Firelands patch. I'm quite curious if Q4 will show a slow down or a reversal of this trend. That might give more credence to the fact that their 'reactions' are actually working.<br /><br />However, I have to agree with some of the other posters: people are leaving WoW not only because of what they've been doing to their yo-yo philosophy on raiding difficulty but also because of other major reasons such as new MMO's of higher quality being released and the fact they're trying to please too many people and end up not pleasing everyone in turn.Falreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-46438254340822922912012-01-26T14:23:33.306-08:002012-01-26T14:23:33.306-08:00What I don't get is: Why are people griping if...What I don't get is: Why are people griping if the nerfs can be turned off? I have played the game since TBC, which I thought was too hard. Not that I couldn't do it, it just wasnt fun. Dying is not fun for me. Failure is not fun for me. I have plenty of real life endeavors that I can fail and "grow" at. Video games should be a way to blow off frustrations, not create it. <br />I believe I am in the majority. Thankfully, it seems Blizzard is coming back to that conclusion. I still to this day think Wrath has been the best expansion. DK's, ICC, even though ToC was kind of lame, I really enjoyed the argent tournament.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-40159762943851266962012-01-26T11:40:15.060-08:002012-01-26T11:40:15.060-08:00So, when Blizzard does something that doesn't ...<i>So, when Blizzard does something that doesn't work, it's because they listened to a group of people foolishly, but when they do something new, it's obviously correct and based on their infallible insider information. </i><br /><br />Because one is action, the other is reaction.<br /><br />Did Blizzard make Cata heroics harder in response to people quitting because Wrath heroics were too easy? No they made them harder because they and a lot of the more vocal audience thought it was a good idea.<br /><br />Did Blizzard make Cata heroics easier in response to people quitting because Cata heroics were too hard? Yes, yes they did.<br /><br />See the difference? One is action without a triggering event, one is reaction to a triggering event.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-17057969350289462212012-01-26T11:34:25.271-08:002012-01-26T11:34:25.271-08:00"@Kadaan, that's possible, but I deem it ..."@Kadaan, that's possible, but I deem it unlike. Blizzard has better information than we do. They know who's quitting, and they'll have done research to find out why.<br /><br />So look at Blizzard's actions. What did they change in response to the loss of subscriptions? They completely backtracked on the whole harder difficulty thing."<br /><br />So, when Blizzard does something that doesn't work, it's because they listened to a group of people foolishly, but when they do something new, it's obviously correct and based on their infallible insider information. <br /><br />Do you even see the massive self-contradiction in your argument there?<br /><br />The rest of your argument is too reductionist to be taken seriously. For someone like myself who could do the dances in their sleep, the dps/hps requirements of Cata were very easy compared to BC. For someone who couldn't learn the dances, Cata would be much harder to get carried through than earlier content. To claim that the "hardcore" are responsible for Cata's failure is inane. The hardcore are concerned with heroic raid difficulty, not with 5 man difficulty or normal raid difficulty. What self-respecting hardcore player would ask for more country dance elements and easier dps/hps requirements, in content that he doesn't care about? That's sublimely ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-4228169846201152902012-01-26T10:08:45.225-08:002012-01-26T10:08:45.225-08:00I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't...I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't think any of the expansions (or patches) after Sunwell was catering to the "old guard" at all. Thus, the loss of 2M players had nothing to do whatsoever with catering to veterans.<br /><br />Rather the opposite, the veteran players are what made me *want* to be a veteran player and get into a good guild so I could see Hyjal and BT. That kind of motivation is what drove new players to WoW in mass numbers.<br /><br />The failure to deliver meaningful linear progression (e.g., releasing patches while making certain ilevels obsolete, like in WotLK on), IMHO, is what drove many players like me (who had become veteran by WotLK) away from the game. For example, how many people ventured into Ulduar after ICC hit? Cataclysm was the last straw. I didn't even care to get better gear, or see the latest twitchy lol-dungeon. <br /><br />So it is two-fold: The failure to deliver meaningful linear progression and the loss of veteran players.Furyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07313474784146768698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-55330514266299825152012-01-26T08:47:46.066-08:002012-01-26T08:47:46.066-08:00You assume the majority of players who quit were c...You assume the majority of players who quit were casuals who couldn't deal with endgame content, but my group of friends quit during Cataclysm, too. They were hardcore players, either Gladiators or in good raiding guilds.<br /><br />Some quit because of poor balance, others because there wasn't enough raid content. We agreed WoW didn't feel like a world anymore, just a bunch of minigames on which it was easy to burn out.<br /><br />Your entire post is based on the assumption Cataclysm is more hardcore, but the developers spent a very large amount of resources redoing the old world and making leveling a more enjoyable experience. How about raid finder -- is THAT hardcore?<br /><br />The answer isn't to ignore hardcore players. Just look at the dungeon challenge preview -- if the devs get creative enough, everyone can be satisfied.Hofflerandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09451418651808846415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-31031026550740367562012-01-26T08:45:47.545-08:002012-01-26T08:45:47.545-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Hofflerandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09451418651808846415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-52113540013777276022012-01-26T07:40:32.643-08:002012-01-26T07:40:32.643-08:00I'm one of those lost subs, but not because ra...I'm one of those lost subs, but not because raiding or heroics were too difficult. I quit because the overall quality of the game was far below what I had come to expect from Blizzard Entertainment.<br /><br />Cataclysm was a poorly produced product, for reasons that are far too numerous to go into in a comment.<br /><br />The shift from the era of Tom Chilton to the era of J. Allen Brack has not been kind to WoW...and Greg Street needs to seriously stop changing class mechanics and the talent system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-37270824758217758012012-01-26T06:09:31.162-08:002012-01-26T06:09:31.162-08:00It was never a matter of difficulty.
It's abo...It was never a matter of difficulty.<br /><br />It's about accomplishment and motivation.<br /><br />When raids no longer feel like an accomplishment, then you lose the motivation to do them. There's no point trying to get gear if the gear is meaningless.<br /><br />The game simply lost its purpose. It no longer builds community and it no longer offers meaningful challenges.<br /><br />The most fun I had in cataclysm was the hard heroics at the start and the fishing contest we had in our guild.Tahna Rouspelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10172054744138768498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-77287406895694951532012-01-26T03:17:23.307-08:002012-01-26T03:17:23.307-08:00The biggest failure at the start of cataclysm was ...The biggest failure at the start of cataclysm was the new 'triage' healing model. In order for that to work, characters and therefore mobs, needed a lot more health.<br /><br />Instead of dying in 5 seconds, each mob took a lot longer to kill, so that the healer's mana got stretched. While this made healing more interesting, it meant the new heroics took forever to complete.<br /><br />I would disagree that the heroics were too hard (ok, maybe Stonecore was), rather that they were way too long, especially for LFD parties, who are intolerant of anything that requires patience. <br /><br />The latest heroics show that the 'triage' model has been consigned to history, and we are back to a more Wrath-style game.<br /><br />The other big boo boo they made, was nerfing the levelling game into complete faceroll, where one button spam could win you any encounter, but suddenly expect people to know their class inside and out once they hit level 85.<br /> <br />LFR is a continuation of the faceroll model extended to raiding. Once people enter normal modes with their shiny LFR gear and find the difficulty level has increased, they can't get past Ultraxion without learning how to play properly, and so the nerfing cycle continues.*vlad*noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-42319023526929427242012-01-25T06:04:27.721-08:002012-01-25T06:04:27.721-08:00I just want to mention that the people who talk ab...I just want to mention that the people who talk about the difficulty, or lack thereof, absolutely infuriate me. I just want to know how many of these people have actually beaten <b>everything</b> before they made that pronouncement.<br /><br />My 10s, before it fell apart, bitched and complained about Dragon Soul being far too easy, when we were having troubles beating Zon'ozz and Yor'sahj. When we were having troubles beating Ultraxion. When we couldn't even get past Blackhorn. On Normal. All the while also claiming that there was nothing new about the content. That even though there wasn't another boss quite like these guys, it was somehow so derivative.<br /><br />So you know what? I can't speak for your own experiences, but most of the people that I have seen talk about how easy things are haven't actually seen the content at it's hardest. So if stuff is going to be nerfed to make the investment in the content worthwhile, a few months after it was released? All the better for it. Raiding is not an elitist club anymore; it's not a maintainable investment, and they've stated that multiple times in the past. If high end guilds want to have higher challenges, there's Heroic modes or imposing their own limitations.<br /><br />A favourite anecdote of mine is that the first Chinese kill of Illidan was made with guys wearing T3, but when was the last time you saw a top end NA guild tackling content with clearly outdated gear? If they're bitching so much for a challenge, why arn't they challenging themselves more?RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10492971146589461692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-52321954394808055152012-01-25T00:45:15.911-08:002012-01-25T00:45:15.911-08:00"The only nerfs we took advantage of were att..."The only nerfs we took advantage of were attunement removals (except the BT one, because we needed the necks for shadow resistance) and the 3.0 nerfs because, dangit, we weren’t ready to stop raiding yet. (Still, we were 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT when 3.0 dropped.)"<br /><br />I was 5/5 Hyjal and 9/9 BT when 3.0 was released but I don't think I was in a very good guild because we didn't kill Calecgos in SWP. What Kurn is writing is nonsense. Every raid boss in TBC was nerfed several times. She wouldn't be able to down even T4 bosses if they weren't nerfed.<br /><br />I play with some Vanilla and TBC veterans but no one is complaining about nerfs. Seems to me only some wannabe HC players are complaining.Juminanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-51925383633226275222012-01-24T23:48:04.184-08:002012-01-24T23:48:04.184-08:00Cataclysm lacked end game content. With raids the ...Cataclysm lacked end game content. With raids the Only thing to work on, you hit the wall a lot faster.<br /><br />10 and 25 split has accelerated people dropping out. In 25 if you don't progress, you may be forced to switch down to 10's. In 10's if you don't progress fast enough you may loose irreplaceable members.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-23415988136236013942012-01-24T15:59:36.577-08:002012-01-24T15:59:36.577-08:00T5 killed my original guild. From 5th or so in MC,...T5 killed my original guild. From 5th or so in MC, to 4th to clear Kara ut the glacial progress of T5 was the end. You kill some bosses, lose a few people, then you can't kill what you could before, you get better and kill them again then lose some people. Rinse and repeat.With the additional issue of if you actually got vashj or kael then your members where hot targets for guilds that where actually in t6 because nobody liked running atunement runs for recruits.<br /><br />I spent a year in t5 and I still mamaged to finally get into t6 prior to the removal of the attunements and gear nerfs - just.<br /><br />But as said when our guild died a lot of players just stopped playing perhaps half the guild. Some have come back for short periods since but they are no longer raiders.<br /><br />The current nerds? I think they are too soon. But the basic idea I agree with.Ngitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13526961657299848611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-88448001885567874722012-01-24T15:07:40.395-08:002012-01-24T15:07:40.395-08:00@Kadaan, that's possible, but I deem it unlike...@Kadaan, that's possible, but I deem it unlike. Blizzard has better information than we do. They know who's quitting, and they'll have done research to find out why.<br /><br />So look at Blizzard's actions. What did they change in response to the loss of subscriptions? They completely backtracked on the whole harder difficulty thing.<br /><br />They also know how many people quit because of the Firelands nerfs. Given that they are still pursuing nerfs, that implies that higher difficulty does more damage than nerfs.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-53781016927287876532012-01-24T14:58:05.760-08:002012-01-24T14:58:05.760-08:00This post has a lot of correlation=causation in it...This post has a lot of correlation=causation in it. I agree that the hardcore/vocal minority don't represent the will and wants of the majority, but some of the statements are just fallacies:<br /><br /><i>"And what was the result of the best efforts of these "community assets"? Two million lost subscriptions."</i><br /><br />Who knows, if not for all the "community assets", maybe there would have been four million lost subscriptions, or they never would have hit 12.5m total subscriptions in the first place.Kadaanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11826029508824702882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-46258264851604852792012-01-24T14:56:22.065-08:002012-01-24T14:56:22.065-08:00I'm not sure I understand the argument against...I'm not sure I understand the argument against the optional nerf.<br /><br />Do these 'hardcore' types gain pleasure not by beating bosses, but by other people NOT beating bosses? <br /><br />How pathetic.esskittehnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-15004341999816794952012-01-24T12:11:16.458-08:002012-01-24T12:11:16.458-08:00@Clockwork:
Not using an optional buff = lower se...@Clockwork:<br /><br />Not using an optional buff = lower server ranking.<br /><br />Higher server ranking = easier time recruiting/better recruits.<br /><br />It's just not an option to turn it off for any guild that is in the top 10 or 20.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-49576616108400155482012-01-24T11:26:55.975-08:002012-01-24T11:26:55.975-08:00I am a general player, do not raid with a group.. ...I am a general player, do not raid with a group.. I think that Blizz has done enough with end game. <br /><br />I think they should leave it alone. I feel totally satisfied going to LFR and seeing the content. Nerf that part of the game and leave Heroic and Regular alone. I would think most people would be happy with that.<br /><br />I think the reason that "Hard Heroics" of Cata failed is because the game requires you to run these 10,000 times. If I only had to run those once and I then had a full set of gear I would have no problem with them. Lets say my legs came from the Hyjal ones and Chest from Deepholm. <br /><br />However since I have to run them every single night and if one person does not run from the thing the whole party dies... not fun.. <br /><br />I like the new heroics since they are short and unless the DPS is doing 4k or the healer is horrible I can finish them easily with no chance to fail in a reasonable time.. So when nothing else is going on I grab my main and a couple alts and have fun gearing. <br /><br />I like them also because the content is pretty good.<br /><br />I refuse to run the old Heroics anymore so as a semi-goblin I BUY every scrap of material I can find in the AH or craft with my BS and even if my mage is rocking an AGI trinket I am in the new heroics. Usually this works out. XD. <br /><br />As a matter of fact my mage had to run only 4 new heroics before ready for LFR and has already gotten a helmet drop! YAY MAGES! I also do not see her doing any less DPS than most people in LFG/LFR.. normally I am right up there with the top.SirFWALGManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01310209706844541719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-58583202999590989232012-01-24T11:12:46.846-08:002012-01-24T11:12:46.846-08:00I could not agree with this post more. I am a cas...I could not agree with this post more. I am a casual raider, I am the reason that content gets nerfed. I am not a bad, I just don't go into a raid with optimal raid composition because I play with friends and family... and I still want to see content.<br /><br />I hated the difficulty of Cata. It was not to difficult for me, I finished most of the heroics the first week the content came out and even got some of the achievements... but it was way too difficult for about 2/3s of our guild... what happened after? tons of unhappy people.<br /><br />The people that got into raiding during wrath cried foul because they had never had to "relearn" their toons. It was sad to see so many people leave the game simply because they could not play with their friends anymore... raiding was a completely different story. We did ok on tier 11, and even got 1 hardmode done, but then Firelands and its RNG really hurt us.<br /><br />What most raiders don't consider is that casuals enter every raid a little behind the curve. We don't have heroic pieces and sometimes not even full 4 sets. Things that become quite trivial with gear inflation are just not accessible to us. <br /><br />The moment your tank or healer get a 4 piece, it makes the raid that much easier and farming content that much quicker. Our progression goes more like a new boss down every could of weeks, to your everything on normal done the first week. That is a lot of gear that we get to stay behind on.<br /><br />The added burden is that with less bosses down, and less gear one bad night of raiding or a bad roll can discourage a player... that is what got me out of the whole progression game. Loot drama and the like. <br /><br />I agree with your point of view that listening to the hardcore raiders about how to change the game is bad... now if the conversation was only about hardmodes or the buff only applying to normal, I could see things more Kurn's way. I just don't think that you can ever make everyone happy, and with that said even if its just 1 million of us, we are pretty happy with the nerfs coming.Logtar (@logtar)http://logtar.com/wownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-69000306092437952002012-01-24T10:28:00.297-08:002012-01-24T10:28:00.297-08:00...I would probably resub if they did (I reside in......I would probably resub if they did (I reside in the New Eden sandbox now, getting MAH LAZORS on).Heywood Djiblomihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424315448841746864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-23604989871850382052012-01-24T10:24:26.626-08:002012-01-24T10:24:26.626-08:00Maybe straying a little, but just firing up a coup...Maybe straying a little, but just firing up a couple 1.12.1 and 2.4.3 servers would make an awful lot (I would dare to say millions) of subscribers downright giddy.Heywood Djiblomihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424315448841746864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-12738321963792549632012-01-24T09:01:53.461-08:002012-01-24T09:01:53.461-08:00"Blizzard listened to us at the start of Cata..."Blizzard listened to us at the start of Cataclysm. "<br /><br />Yup, they didn't listen to people like me who said "You know, Wrath was pretty much perfect, just keep doing that. We liked having quick heroics as well as the harder ICC ones. And those separate 10 and 25 man raid lockouts worked brilliantly for casual 25 man guilds, definitely keep those."<br /><br />So we left :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com