tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post767993019145377677..comments2024-01-04T02:49:23.470-08:00Comments on Blessing of Kings: WotLK 10/25-Man RaidsRohanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-70249744452048593092008-10-20T08:23:00.000-07:002008-10-20T08:23:00.000-07:00Alright folks. After reading all these posts i've ...Alright folks. After reading all these posts i've noticed something. We all take different things out of the game. Some people enjoy spending 6-7 days a week raiding and some people just dont or lack the interest to or time. You know, maybe we should quit complaining about it and just live with the changes? Do your 25-man raids, do your 10-man raids just dont tell another player there playing the game wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-4102561808349352382008-07-21T13:25:00.000-07:002008-07-21T13:25:00.000-07:00Its simple. Bottom line, 25 men raids will still ...Its simple. Bottom line, 25 men raids will still be there, but 10 man raids are there as an alternative to the headache. I know you are sitting here Dazanna, talking down on the people that you consider lesser than you. <BR/><BR/>Guess what? I led a top 20 WoW raiding guild in MC and BWL. I led a top 50 guild at the beginning of TBC. The micromanaging SUCKS. You might befortunate to be on a server that has a high population. You are probably alliance. Either way, when push comes to shove, it is a hell of a lot easier, in my opinion, to get with a very tight knit group and do 10 mans. You dont have to worry about the headache of recruiting. You can be casual and it doenst feel like a job. You are sitting here saying stuff like this <BR/><BR/>"If I come across as elitist... I am. I absolutely hate just how far Blizzard has taken their casual-pandering attitude that is weakening this game horribly."<BR/><BR/>Why should you be catered to over people that can only play 6 hours a week? Why should you get special privs over people that have a different playstyle? You need to get a grip on reality (in the wow sense).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-3382118969429711212008-07-01T05:57:00.000-07:002008-07-01T05:57:00.000-07:00I was a leader of a "Casual Raiding Guild". We sta...I was a leader of a "Casual Raiding Guild". We started out in 40 mans, suffered leavers in TBC levelling and then went through the whole 10 man to 25 man jump.<BR/><BR/>Then we finally hit Hyjal and the summer, weeks ago we collapsed losing majority of our healers while due to vacations being unable to raid.<BR/><BR/>having experienced the content of all raids one thing has shown to me to be clear, when Blizzard reduces the Raid numbers that makes the content harder because you need more people to be at the top of their game to beat the instance.<BR/><BR/>In MC half the raid slacked, in BWL about a quarter did. When it came down to beating the content in TBC every raid member was needed, and slacking WAS noticeable.<BR/><BR/>For those saying a casual guild will clear the 10 man Arthas, I think your dreaming ZA is an indication of what is to come, a hard 10 man where everyone will need to be at their best to win it.<BR/><BR/>My own feelings however are that raiding guilds are dying generally in this game as multiple guilds collapsed before mine did during this summer. I put that down to the uselessness of PvE gear in PvP and the time needed to run the content.<BR/><BR/>40 man, 10 man, 25 man, its all the same it all requires time consumables and no slacking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-50322973375133042782008-06-03T11:50:00.000-07:002008-06-03T11:50:00.000-07:00In reality, the real loss will not be between the ...In reality, the real loss will not be between the 10 man and the 25 man. As now, people will do the 10 man's until they are good enough then then group to do the 25 man version. People have mention "seeing Content" if that was the sole reason then a guild would only run the instance ONCE. As we saw with TBC - the 25 man did not destroy casual or raiding guilds - it seems they keep sprouting up. <BR/><BR/>The real issue about loss of content is that the casual gamer (and ne raider) will have lost content but not from WotLK but in the original game and soon to be TBC - when was the last time anyone ran AQ20 let alone AQ40. It is fun to 2 man strat but I do not think Blizzard ever had that in mind when they created one of the hardest 5 man instance. <BR/><BR/>I started too late in WoW - so Scolo is the only lvl 60 i have seen since it was too easy to continue to outlands - soon that will be true for outland - why would anyone want to run Heroic SL when you can run The Nexus which I am sure will drop better stuff--- who remember that first green that blew the stuff off your hard earned tier 3. <BR/><BR/> I would like to see Blizzard try to keep players visiting the older areas - anyone for Heroic Strat?<BR/><BR/>My thoughts anyway<BR/><BR/>--in game <BR/>MPA on anvilmarAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-26238300542683066012008-05-28T11:08:00.000-07:002008-05-28T11:08:00.000-07:00I think 25 man raiding is doomed. The 25 man raid...I think 25 man raiding is doomed. The 25 man raiders are ticked off, because they can see what the future holds. <BR/><BR/>People play games because they want to have fun, and experience all that a game has to offer. For the MAJORITY, dealing with the hassles of 25 man's is not worth it. Who needs a second job that doesn't even pay money? Who wants to spend hours farming mats for consumables or running the same dailies over and over so they can have repair money? Who wants to spend weeks whiping on the same boss until they figure out the strats and timing? Who wants to deal with the constant logistical problems of finding 25 people who will show up 3 nights a week on time and fully prepared? None of this spells fun to the MAJORITY of people.<BR/><BR/>Ever notice how top raiding guilds are constantly recruiting? This is because tons of people who aspired to be part of end game raiding got burnt out and realized they were not having fun. Where did these guilds find their replacements? From the small core of soon to be burnt out hardcore raiders at small casual guilds.<BR/><BR/>25 man guilds will be a dying breed because these people will have an alternate path in the future where they can stay in their small casual guilds with all of their friends and still experience all of the games story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-71098075901783302942008-05-27T00:21:00.000-07:002008-05-27T00:21:00.000-07:00I believe that the attunment statement was: that y...I believe that the attunment statement was: that you would not have to do 10 man content to attune for 25 man content and vice versa. e.g. Kara to unlock SSC.<BR/><BR/>Not that there would not be any attunement at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-10412051721946557132008-05-19T18:03:00.000-07:002008-05-19T18:03:00.000-07:00alcaras, Wowjutsu is good, but I feel that forum t...alcaras, Wowjutsu is good, but I feel that forum threads serve a slightly different purpose than simply showing progression.<BR/><BR/>First, they're a place for a guild to state, "We've just defeated X", to actively show some pride in their accomplishments and for the rest of the server to recognize those accomplishments.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, these threads have the guild website attached to the listing, making it a really good resource for recruitment. If you are on server X, and you're looking for a new guild, you can see exactly which guilds are at your level, and jump to their websites right away.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-53116994510635976892008-05-19T17:00:00.000-07:002008-05-19T17:00:00.000-07:00@ AnonymousI think you missed the point of my post...@ Anonymous<BR/><BR/>I think you missed the point of my post. <BR/><BR/>The idea is not to eliminate 25-man raids, the point is to provide an alternate progression path to cater to everyone so that people aren't forced into raiding as their only means of accomplishing anything meaningful in the game long term. 25-man raiding, and all that entails - committing to 4+ hours for 2-7 nights a week and a guild of a realistic minimum of 30 - should be a positive choice. Players should be saying to themselves 'hey, you know, lets all do 25-man instances because we all find it <B>more fun</B>'.<BR/><BR/>Currently, and pretty much since release, for any player to progress in the game they have to raid with 24 other people. That's not an affirmative choice, but rather 'well, either I cancel my subs, level an alt in the same content, or 25-man', IMO not acceptable.<BR/><BR/>Raiding should have to stand on its own two feet in terms of people who want to play it, and that means that given plenty of other content for other forms of play at the level cap it should have to be able to sustain itself. If you can find 30+ people who want to 25-man then you've not got a problem, but it means that those who actually want to experience new content aren't forced into a mode of gameplay which they dislike. <B>If</B> 25's aren't able to sustain themselves because you can't tempt people away from 10's, well tough cookies that's the way competition works. And having seen arrogant raiding guilds lord it over their servers whilst overwhelming forums with QQ's about how raiding is dying and 25/40 mans are the only form of end-game content there should be, not many people will be weeping over their demise. <BR/><BR/>They'll be too busy having <I>their</I> fun in 10-man Naxx etc.<BR/><BR/>As for me, I'll be looking at both 10-manning and 25-manning in Wrath if they decide on entry-level 25-man (rather than forcing people to go through 10's to get to 25's), which Naxx is supposed to be, and if I can reliably set-aside the time. But I've been on both sides of the game in the past and so I don't find it difficult to get some perspective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-17082849956634177822008-05-19T15:18:00.000-07:002008-05-19T15:18:00.000-07:00@ the zebra with a death wish ....Im sorry, but th...@ the zebra with a death wish ....<BR/><BR/>Im sorry, but the tone of your entire post seems like you are mad because you couldn't find a 25 man for you QQ if you want but in the end its not that you don't want to do 25 mans, its that you find you cant. thats fine. just don't try and kill my fun by saying there shouldn't be 25 mansAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-74037170575866384232008-05-19T15:16:00.000-07:002008-05-19T15:16:00.000-07:00@anonymousI'm a graphic artist and a terrible typi...@anonymous<BR/><BR/>I'm a graphic artist and a terrible typist... :-)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-34772087163372530092008-05-19T15:13:00.000-07:002008-05-19T15:13:00.000-07:00Are you aware of WowJutsu?It might be a big help i...Are you aware of WowJutsu?<BR/><BR/>It might be a big help in updating your thread, or you might just replace your thread with a link to it.<BR/><BR/>See:<BR/>http://wowjutsu.com/us/skywall/index_alliance.html<BR/><BR/>It lists alliance guilds on Skywall, in order of progression, including what bosses' they've killed.<BR/><BR/>It works by scanning the armory for loot from bosses and automatically updating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-47444925803651018132008-05-19T14:42:00.000-07:002008-05-19T14:42:00.000-07:00Dazanna,And I still think it's possible for casual...Dazanna,<BR/><BR/>And I still think it's possible for casuals to see more of the content with a 10-man progression. Perhaps my group wouldn't make it to Arthas before the next expansion. BFD. <BR/><BR/>As long as there is a moderate chance of progression, that's fine. <BR/><BR/>But if it's clear raiding is not-for-casuals as PVP now is, and with crafting progression being restricted to raiders, then there's no point in playing the game.<BR/><BR/>As I was told by another "raider", "you're a casual and lvl 70?.. cool! You've won the game! Now quit and go away".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-55774131982226623752008-05-19T14:34:00.000-07:002008-05-19T14:34:00.000-07:00Dazanna,First off, I'm too old for Pokemon...Sorry...Dazanna,<BR/><BR/>First off, I'm too old for Pokemon...<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but this is a sore spot, as I'm sick of hard-core raiders basically saying the game is for them. It comes up in every discussion in every forum where raiding is discussed.<BR/><BR/>It's all about level of commitment. Should the clerk at the store check your schedule before you buy WoW?.. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should just quit the game. The S4 changes are eliminating any chance for a casual PVPer to advance in area, so there's no point in being there. Getting crushed by anything past 1600ish is just not worth it.<BR/><BR/>The possibility of having a 10-man raid of friends is what still gives me hope for WoTLK. The best times I've had in this game were with a solid group of 5 that I was running 5-mans and heroics with. Good times. If that can be replicated with a group to go through the 10-man progression, that would be awesome. If I have to deal with 25 people fighting for slots in a 10-man and raid politics JUST to see the content, no thanks. I want no part of it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-90151585231189662912008-05-19T14:02:00.000-07:002008-05-19T14:02:00.000-07:00Karl, since you decided to default to the normal "...Karl, since you decided to default to the normal "raiders have no life" bullshit I'll counter with my own guild.<BR/><BR/>Limited Edition of Draka (US CST) raids 3 nights a week for a total of 14 hours each week. We are currently <I>2/6 Sunwell</I> and working hard on downing Felmyst within the next cycle. We are people with a passion to improve our WoW experience and tackle new content while still living a full life outside the game.<BR/><BR/>Yes, if you want to join a world first guild you will be raiding 6 or 7 nights a week. But there are tons of raiding guilds out there that already have very small raiding schedules and still progress. If you really want to raid but can only dedicate 3 nights a week to it you can easily find a guild. Like I said earlier, most guilds (again, world-first guilds are different) are looking more for passion and commitment than gear and experience. The later two come with time.<BR/><BR/>I'll use an analogy to explain my position since you're so confused. I'm sure almost everyone has played or seen Pokemon before. At the start of the game you set out from Professor Oak's lab with a little level 5 Charmander. Over the course of the game your Charmander grows and learns new abilities and evolves into a Charizard. Finally after a lot of work you beat the Elite Four. You <I>progress</I> through the game. At the start it may be hard but if you have the drive to succeed you can overcome it and win.<BR/><BR/>Now think about if instead of a little level 5 Charmander Professor Oak gave you a level 100 Charizard with all the best moves right at the beginning of the game. You can go and one-shot everything in the game and clear it rather quickly. But would that be fun? There is no sense of progression, no sense of challenge.<BR/><BR/>What do pokemon and WoW have in common? They are both RPGs. Both are about slowly progressing through the game. When you take out that progression you gut the game. That is why 10-mans have to have a scaling difficulty, and why casual players still won't see content.Dazannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10055679459647685516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-78024940686859140872008-05-19T13:05:00.000-07:002008-05-19T13:05:00.000-07:00Well, I suppose it is harder to convince 25 toons ...Well, I suppose it is harder to convince 25 toons not to stand in the fire than 10 toons not to stand in the fire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-25951885310002370812008-05-19T12:32:00.000-07:002008-05-19T12:32:00.000-07:00@dazanna so, what you seem to be saying is that if...@dazanna <BR/><BR/>so, what you seem to be saying is that if I can only raid two nights a week, I shouldn't be playing, and that the game is really only for dedicated raiders?.. <BR/><BR/>sorry, I don't have a consistent 20+ hours a week to raid. I have a wife, and job, and (gasp) a RL.<BR/><BR/>What I would hope is that the 10-mans are tuned that a core group can do it. It works for Kara and ZA, it should be able to work for others. <BR/><BR/>Really, it should require more skill. And by skill I don't mean spending 5kG on resist gear for one boss, or an simon-says click-the-cube fight. Those are gimics, not skill. I hope they tune for things where it requires skilled players, who can learn as a group. <BR/><BR/>Otherwise... I really don't have much interest in it.<BR/><BR/>It's possible to have different needs, (I'm sure one will require a DK as a tank) without going to 20-30 toons.<BR/><BR/>Besides, your 25-mans will have higher-ilvls of gear, Blizz has already said that.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-9180886182237612772008-05-19T12:17:00.000-07:002008-05-19T12:17:00.000-07:00I recall 2 years back, when it was first announced...I recall 2 years back, when it was first announced that WoW was going to move from 40-man to 25-man raid designs, the elite raiders complaining that this was the end of the raid game because 25-man raids couldn't be complex enough to justify their elite status. Hell, 2.5 years ago ZG and AQ20 spelt the end of the high-end raids. Nice to see their worries so were well founded.<BR/><BR/>It's disappointing that raiders feel their style of gameplay is being marginalised and not catered for. It will be a shame to see an ever dwindling number of players not be forced into a multiple-day per week raiding schedule in order to have any sense of personal accomplishment beyond the numbers on their weapon.<BR/><BR/>If the 25-man raiding scene requires content bottlenecks in order to perpetuate, and by its very nature prevents many people from experiencing it and hence the majority of new content released in patches, does it really have any right to exist as the sole means of PvE progression in the game? It's worth saying that to everyone not involved in BT+ new dailies aren't content, shiny new Badge Purples aren't new content, and a new Arena Season isn't new content. Similarly, the existence of 5-mans hasn't marginalised Heroics and each serve their own, very defined, role in the game.<BR/><BR/>Wrath can't come soon enough, and if it heralds the death of 25-man raids because guilds can't convince players that 25-man is more fun than 10-man raiding (and they should put up with their shit in order to get into their raid) good riddance to them. The raiding scene should have to justify its place in the game beyond a snobbish sense of elitism, just as every other form of content does. If the encounters can't be tuned to be well varied (and I doubt this) then so be it, simple content created among similar lines beats one instance of exactly the same content every single time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-9786524925454337302008-05-19T11:55:00.000-07:002008-05-19T11:55:00.000-07:00But again Karl, if you're doing a simple tank'n'sp...But again Karl, if you're doing a simple tank'n'spank for every encounter are you really seeing content? If you can't have new and unique boss abilities because you can't have group stacking these encounters are going to get boring pretty quickly.<BR/><BR/>So again, I ask <I>are you really seeing content</I>? Is it even progress to do encounters with no difference other than the model the boss wears? By doing an ultra-watered down version of an instance are you really experiencing new and challenging content or just looking at pretty artwork?<BR/><BR/>My answer is no, which is why Blizzard will make 10-mans require stacking towards the later endgame. Anything less than that and they completely trivialize the work they put into it. You should not be able to walk up to Arths with 9 friends who play for 2 hours a week and one-shot him.Dazannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10055679459647685516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-38860205889849152682008-05-19T10:57:00.000-07:002008-05-19T10:57:00.000-07:00I'd expect 25-mans to be harder and more complex. ...I'd expect 25-mans to be harder and more complex. Especially more complex, and have better loot. Fine.<BR/><BR/>What I do hope is that the new 10-mans will allow for a small guild to progress through the content with minimal stacking. The only real stacking should be 3-different kinds of tanks, depending on the fight. <BR/><BR/>If the 10-mans require a 20-person team due to stacking, then it defeats the purpose. I'll stick with solo-casual then. <BR/><BR/>But 10-mans tuned so a core of 12-14 people can progress through content would open up a new aspect for the game.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-62376016726351126642008-05-19T10:18:00.000-07:002008-05-19T10:18:00.000-07:0025-mans will always be harder and more complex tha...25-mans will always be harder and more complex than 10-mans for one simple reason.<BR/><BR/>Raid/group composition.<BR/><BR/>When Blizzard designs 25-mans they can assume a certain representation for each class; every raid will have at least one pally, at least two tanks, etc. For 10-mans they can not assume this, as with 10 classes in the game and 10 slots its not exactly fair to assume 1 (or more) of each class.<BR/><BR/>Thus, you see 25-man bosses with very complex abilities. For example, we'll take the Vashj fight. Every 15-20 seconds Vashj will cast Entangling Roots (just like the druid spell) on everyone in melee range, tank included. It is not dispellable. If your tank gets the rooted though Vashj will run to the far side of the room and start using Multi-shot to wipe the raid. How do you control it? Have Paladins keeping Blessing of Freedom on the tank so he/she can't get rooted.<BR/><BR/>In a 25-man this works well, it is assumed you'll have at least one or two paladins in a 25-man raid. How would this work for a 10-man? You can't always assume to have a paladin in a 10 man raid.<BR/><BR/>So you get two possible outcomes. The first is that Blizzard removes any kind of this specialization of roles from all encounters and everything because a kara level tank'n'spank. However, now all the fights are different than the 25-mans. Are you really seeing content or are you seeing the artwork of the dungeon with this kind of wholesale destruction of actual content?<BR/><BR/>The second outcome is that Blizzard really tightens the content for 10-mans. If they did put in boss abilities that require certain classes (just as with the 25-man) you would need raid stacking for both 10- and 25-man content, meaning you and your pals won't be seeing it. You'll farm Naxx-10 for the next 2 years, just like you're farming kara now. But that is the way real raid content is, you have to work at it with a determined and organized guild.<BR/><BR/>So ask yourself, do you want to see real content or do you just want to see the artwork? If you want to do the first you'll have to live with raid-stacking, wiping all night to learn encounters, farming consumables, recruiting people who aren't from your core group of friends, etc. If you just want the second go watch a movie of Nihilum and leave raiding alone.Dazannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10055679459647685516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-27815340678646640922008-05-19T08:46:00.000-07:002008-05-19T08:46:00.000-07:00Blizzard is killing WoW at it will die with WoTLK....Blizzard is killing WoW at it will die with WoTLK. TBH, AoC is looking too good to pass up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-41320147628553871732008-05-19T08:28:00.000-07:002008-05-19T08:28:00.000-07:00regardless of 25-man-raider-epeening, 10-man raids...regardless of 25-man-raider-epeening, 10-man raids may be what saves this game. The fact that there will be a progression for 10-man groups through the end of expansion means that core groups can develop, and STAY TOGETHER. People don't have to leave to see more content. This is one of the best things Blizz has ever done. I'm starting to look for a group now that will be capable to go through the 10-man progression.<BR/><BR/>25-man guilds may suffer, but that doesn't really concern me, they are "leet" enough, they'll survive, or not.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693940784136807143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-40292205238321681592008-05-19T05:49:00.000-07:002008-05-19T05:49:00.000-07:00I, too, just have to laugh at the Blizzard concept...I, too, just have to laugh at the Blizzard concept of "more toons = tougher".<BR/><BR/>Is doubles tennis really more epic than singles?<BR/>Is 2-on-2 basketball really easier than 5-on-5?<BR/>Would American football be more epic if they made a 15-on-15 version, or 25-on-25, instead of the current 11-on-11?<BR/>And on a team there is often a single hero, a superstar, who is the face of a team and the key to the team's success.<BR/><BR/>And I agree with the previous poster that it's actually more epic when few, or one, HERO defeats a foe. After all, the game is about our alter-ego toon as a hero of Azeroth. <BR/><BR/>So it's entirely an arbitrary matter of tuning as to whether a 10-toon or 25-toon raid is "harder".<BR/>But Blizz has this one backwards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-57938786662108193162008-05-17T14:33:00.000-07:002008-05-17T14:33:00.000-07:00This whole large groups means epic thing has alway...This whole large groups means epic thing has always confused me...Something is epic when it seemingly should be impossible to do. Killing a god is an epic task. However, 1 person killing a god is more epic than an army of 10000 killing a god. In fact, narative epics are generally centered on a single entity, not on large groups.<BR/><BR/>Now, as a practical matter, you can require more DPS from a 25 man than a 10 man, due to sheer numbers, and ridiculous tuning. But that doesn't make the fights worthy of "epic" nature. In the end, WoW will never really have an epic feel because they can never allow a single character to get so powerful as to strike down Arthas alone. But that's what it would take to really be epic.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20292755.post-43957271429418216912008-05-17T12:38:00.000-07:002008-05-17T12:38:00.000-07:00I think the 25-mans are supposed to be harder than...I think the 25-mans are supposed to be harder than their 10-man counterparts. Now, if this is "harder" means more than "the boss does more damage and has more hit points", 25-man raiding will not die out. One thing that applies to all raiding guilds is guild pride, and guilds that want to be taken seriously as a raiding guild might run the 10-mans for basic training on trash or some mechanics of the 25-man bosses, or even easy badges, but they'll be in the 25-man raids every week. They'll have to be in order to continue to be taken seriously.<BR/><BR/>10-manning Arthas appeals to the people that just want to see it before the post WotLK expansion but don't have the time to put into 25-man raiding, whereas the serious raiding guilds will 25-man him for honor and the full experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com