Sunday, September 10, 2006


I've started my guild, and have been recruiting. I did manage to recruit a few people, and so the Winter Court is up to about 5 60s. I've gone on UBRS with a couple of them, and am actually very happy with the quality of members. If we can get 35 more like them, we will do extremely well.

On the down side, I think I've made a couple of mistakes already. First, I changed raid dates. There's a very interesting discussion in the comments of the previous post, and I agree with the side that says you should have fixed, predictive raid dates. Yet I switched my raid dates from Mon/Wed/Thurs/Sun to Mon/Fri/Sat/Sun. Basically, real life interfered. My work hours will be unpredictable for the next little while, so focusing around the weekend will allow me to be present more often. As well, it is fairly early in the guild lifespan, so it shouldn't have much of an impact.

The second mistake was recruiting a few non-60s. I've been thinking about this a lot, and while the non-60s are good players, they are playing a different game than the rest of us. There are two games in WoW, levels 1-59, and level 60. I think a guild needs to focus on the game it is playing, and have players that share in that goal. Rather than recruiting 50s early, it may be better in the long run to wait until they hit 60 and realize that they are playing the second game.

Of course, I'm going to keep my current non-60s. It would be terribly unfair to boot them. However, I think I'm going to make being level 60 a requirement of joining from now on.


  1. Congrats on your progress.

    I see recruiting non-60s as a double-edged sword. I have to agree that 1-59 is a different game from level 60s but most of the pre-ZG instances (DM, Strat, Scholo, BRS) can be done by say 58+ (depends on what class they are and who else is the group of course).

    Non-60s that you recruit and run stuff with "could" feel more loyalty towards the guild and yourself. Also, seeing how fast people level from say 55-60 is a way to gauge their dedication and work-ethic.

    I am not saying that you should recruit lowbies (I would say at least 56 or 58). And you shouldn't recruit too many under-60s (maybe just a few of the more needed classes, for example priests always seem in demand).

    There is also the factor of how badly you want to grow. Being more selective in your recruiting is good (and neccessary imho for raiding guilds) but will take more time.

    Since we touched on raid dates in the comments of the last post I won't say much. But for me having a set in stone raid schedule isn't a big deal if I know what is coming up. For example, if I can look on the guild website on Sat night and see the planned raids for the next week, it doesn't matter if what nights we do things changes.

    I would rather see raid dates change then raid without the GM. (This bit is based on the fact that I was really good friends with my last GM.)

  2. Don't get discouraged Coriel. Building up a guild is a slow process. Keep up the hard work and things will work out for you.

  3. I've just gotta say congrats on the progress so far!

    Also, I have to ask: if I'm ever in the position to start up a guild, can I steal the "5. In your opinion, what is the most underrated ability or talent of your class? Why?" question? That is just plain awesome, and will almost immediately filter out those who are just applying for phat lewts. Only a Paladin would think to ask that :)

  4. Maybe I can learn from your experience.

    About me / my character:
    I'm relatively new to WoW (4-5 months), and only in the lower 40's level-wise right now. I've played main tank (warrior) and main healer (druid) up through SM. I'm looking forward to RFD, Ulda, and Zul'F in the relatively near future -- goals which, to you, are probably becoming fading memories.

    My questions are related to how begin to prepare for the 60's 5-mans and eventually raiding. I'm in a rather close-knit guild that will probably hold together but that will probably not become a raiding guild.

    Things I'd like to know:
    1) What order in which to attack the instances open to 60's.
    2) Which ones can be done by a party of five, which can be at least partially done by a party of five, and which require a raid (and how many are minimally necessary).
    3) What I can do as a player to prepare myself for the raiding environment. What sorts of skills are needed?
    4) Is there a good way to test myself / my party? Perhaps a party instance that I should be able to do before I start attempting raids?
    5) Are there non-raiding ways to obtain good raiding equipment?
    6) What kind of (sets of?) equipment should a non-raider bring to the table that will make me most appealing to raiders?

    I know that several of these could be class-specific or instance-specific treatises.
    So let me attempt example general answers of what I'm looking for...
    1) Probably self-evident...
    2) Also probably self-evident.
    3) I pretty much expect that this is a matter of following a common strategy -- am I right? (We've all heard of Leeroy Jenkins...) I think I'm 'practicing' this in my some of my current instance runs, especially the two-man runs in which I have to perform a specific role in order for our run to succeed (not wipe)
    4) I'm expect an answer such as, "If you / your party can run instance X, you / your party probably have the skills to run with the raiders" -- Particularly a five-man instance that will expose any weak link in a party.
    5) A straightforward question, I think. I'm an armor smith, will that help? Is all the good raiding stuff BOP? Would equipment at the "beginning raider level" be priced insanely high on the AH?
    6) I would expect an answer such as, "a tank needs ## armor and ## defense (and even certain % parry / dodge / resistance(s))", a priest needs... And I understand fully that the answer may be "It depends on the instance". In which case it might be best to hearken back to questions 1 & 2, and at least get a feel for what the early-on 60's gear requirements will look like to break into raiding.

    Thanks very much; your insight is, well... insightful :P

    And grats on the growth I see as I look through your archive to the present!

  5. Xias, it's not really about abilities. I agree that a level 58 could come to ZG/MC. It's more about the mindset. After you have been 60 for a little bit, you approach the game in a different manner, imo.

    Maintain, thanks for the compliments. Feel free to steal it. I'm actually kind of proud of that question. My way of thinking is that "only a paladin who has spent the last few months defending Seal of the Crusader on the paladin forums would think to ask that." :)

    Doeg, I'll try and write something up for you later today. I've always wanted to write a "So You Want to be a Raider"-style guide.

  6. doeg, I will go ahead and try to answer some of your questions to the best of my ability.

    1) For raiding guilds the order is usually something like
    ZG -> AQ20 -> MC -> Ony -> BWL -> AQ40 -> Naxx (everyone doesnt agree with this order though)
    Most of the pre-ZG instances are considered roughly the same with maybe Dire Maul (DM) being slightly harder

    2) 5man stuff: Strat, Scholo, DM, BRD, BRS
    Upper Blackrock Spire (UBRS) is usually raided with 10man but it is "possible" to do it with 5 last I heard

    3) Skills needed depend on class really. In general, knowing what to do and where to go in an instance is great. And if you don't just follow someone that does.

    Listening and taking advice are very important not only in doing an instance but in growing as a player and improving.

    Aggro is very important. As a tank you want to have aggro and maintain it during a fight (aggro basically means that the boss or mob is focused on attacking you and not your healers or casters). As a healer/caster you don't want to pull aggro away from a tank.

    Warriors need to learn to hold aggro using sunder armor and taunt.

    Healers need to be able to watch their aggro, don't heal too early, and time your heals so that whoever your healing doesn't die.

    4) The only way to really test yourself is to raid. I know when I first started raiding I was surprised at how different things were. But basically on the 5man instances, the faster and with fewer wipes you can do it = better players

    5) The good raiding gear is obtained through raiding but there is some decent gear you can get before raiding. For the most part your class dungeon 1 set is a good place to start. Then getting some or all of the dungeon 2. There are some nice pieces that you can use with your class-set to mix and match. As a warrior you really want to go for stamina, +def, and armor.

    6) Established hardcore raiding guilds probably will not even talk to you if you don't already have a full set of raiding gear from at least MC. But the gear I mentioned in #5 is really the best you can do at this point in the game.

    Armorsmithing is good for a warrior because you can make your own Dark Iron gear (fire resist tanking gear). The Dark Iron gear requires materials from MC though (which are sold on the AH for a very high price). Raiding guilds don't expect you to join having your own Dark Iron crafted but the dark iron chestplate is BOP so only the crafter can wear.

    Many of the dungeon 1 class set pieces are BOE and sold on the AH. And if you have crazy amounts of gold, many big raiding guilds will sell BOE class epics from MC on the AH.

    Blah this was a long comment and I think I babbled on, but hopefully you can gain something from it. I am sure Coriel will be able to give you a much better and more concise answer.

  7. Wow, gsh and I posted at the exact same time.

    I like your idea for a wannabe raider guide.

    You are again right Coriel about the pre-60 mindset, etc. I just didn't really think about it since I have been playing for so long. I am always in the 60 mindset =)