Wednesday, June 27, 2007

/roll Loot Rules

On Skywall, the standard loot rules for Bind-on-Pickup items is pass when the loot roll comes up, and then manually use /roll to determine who gets the item afterwards. This seems a little odd at first. Why pass if you're just going to manually use the same process afterwards?

I think the reason we do this is that the standard loot roll does't really correspond to how we think of items. The standard Need/Greed basically has two options:
  1. I need the item.
  2. I don't need the item.

I don't think this correctly matches our thinking about loot, and as such, we ignore the automated system and manually roll afterwards.

In reality, I think there are 3 basic reactions to loot, not 2:
  1. I will use the item all the time.
  2. I will use the item some of the time.
  3. I will not use the item.

We don't explicitly say so, but when we manually roll afterwards, we take the all/some of the time division into account.

For example, say [Hourglass of the Unraveller] dropped in Black Morass. It's a really nice trinket for my Retribution gear, and I wouldn't mind having it. But I don't really want to take the item from a rogue. So I pass, and wait to see if the rogue expresses interest before rolling.

(If I was an active Retribution paladin, this would be different, and I would roll against a rogue for it. I'm talking as a Holy Paladin who may or may not spec Retribution one day.)

Under Need/Greed, no option really fits. If I Need, and I win it over the rogue, that's a bad result. If I Greed, and a mage wins it, that's a bad result too. So we pass and roll it out manually.

Under the three option system, it's much more obvious. Rogue picks the first option (use all the time), I pick the second option (use some of the time), and mage picks the third option (never use it). So the rogue gets it, but I get it if he doesn't need it.

Knowing that this more closely matches how we think about loot rules, I think there are a couple changes that could be made to speed up loot distribution. For example, rather than manually doing need/greed rolls, you could use three steps, rather than making people guess if the "all the time" people will roll.

Or you could use the automatic Need/Greed loot window. Need if you will use all the time, Greed if you will use some of the time, and Pass if you never use it. If everyone passes, an enchanter scoops up the item and shards are passed out at the end of the run.

This could easily be adapted to any instance where you use /roll, such as Karazhan. You could even implement a 1 upgrade per run rule by saying that once you win something, you can only hit Greed from then on, ensuring that someone who hasn't won something can hit Need and guarantee a win.


  1. in my guild we just state at the begginning of the run to need what you need and greed the rest to save time. if we have a DE person on the run we all pass(unless we need of course) and the DE person greeds after we all pass. he then DEs the item. we roll on shards at the end. its kind of a pain in pugs to all pass and then roll after we all pass so I know what you mean.

    i love the new roll on chest pop up. man that saves allot of bs/time

  2. Same rules are on a lot of servers, it's because the older loot system SUCKED horribly bad. So, eventually the community came up with their own hotfix, and it's been that way forever.

  3. I think another reason whey do this is to try to avoid the "oops i hit need instead of greed" issue. We always pass then discuss. usually it is pretty cut and dry on who can use it but, this way if no one wants it we just d/e and roll for the shard.

  4. Gives more time to talk about the item (turns it into a sort of mini-loot council), and prevents accidental need rolls.

  5. I think another reason whey do this is to try to avoid the "oops i hit need instead of greed" issue. We always pass then discuss. usually it is pretty cut and dry on who can use it but, this way if no one wants it we just d/e and roll for the shard.

    I agree with Dick's reasoning. By having everyone pass, you can not only avoid any potential mistakes but also preemptively halt or bring to light ninjas.

  6. They made a change to loot rolling so that the message will stay up for a longer time (3 minutes?) if it's BoP. This gives people enough time to discuss how they're going to roll.

    The main reason the pass/roll system was invented in the first place (in my opinion) is because of the lack of time to talk about who gets the item, and the permanence of that decision once it is made. People don't like making decisions under duress sometimes, so it was just taken for granted that you would pass and then roll to give more time to talk about who gets the item. Kinda silly IMO if the item is something that obviously nobody wants, and we're all gonna greed anyway.

    It's not like it gets rid of ninjas, if everyone passes it's even easier for them to just saunter over to the corpse and pick up the item.

    But you know, on my server I have been noticing that actually using the built-in rolling system has actually been somewhat more popular since BC came out. My fiance thinks it's because of a lot of people coming back to the game who haven't played since before they implemented any kind of need/greed system at all.

    In a perfect world, I'd separate it out into 5 options: NEED VERY MUCH, need kinda, disenchant (only appears if you're an enchanter capable of disenchanting that item), greed, and pass. But hey, might be too complicated for some people ^_^

    I personally dislike the pass/roll system because of sucky PuG people who don't communicate about things. We stand there and a couple of people roll for it, and a couple others kinda wander off. Were you gonna roll for it? Are you passing and don't want it at all? We get a tie and you're not responding to my mention of this or rerolling at all? TELL ME for god's sake.

  7. I'd love to have a nice big button on the pop-up that says: "PASS", as opposed to clicking on the little X in the corner.

    For that matter, make the Pass button HUGE, the greed button big, and the need button small.