Wednesday, February 06, 2008

The Road To Damascus

January 10, 2008:

Retribution is currently terrible in every aspect of the game, even with the best gear currently available.

- Azreal, 70 Paladin, Death & Taxes, Korgath (Yes, that Death & Taxes)

11:04 AM, January 15, 2008:

Retribution Paladins do not have comparable DPS to Shadow Priests. I do not understand where this comes from, as I have never seen a WWS of a major fight with Paladins anywhere near respectable DPS margins.
Death and Taxes would use Retribution Paladins if they were good. There's no spite or hatred of the class preventing them from doing so. They simply don't work. If they did, they would be used; it's that simply. Top tier guilds have to take advantage of everything available to them. It would be hindering progression to do otherwise. Unfortunately, at this time, the spec is sub par.

- Azreal, 70 Paladin, Death & Taxes, Korgath

10:26 PM, January 15, 2008:

I just went Ret in 3s, and I took top 10 undefeated.
You seem to be really gun-ho on Paladins as a hybrid, and, for the first time in a long while I actually feel like one, rather than a healer / cleanser.

I never really considered Ret as a viable spec until today. I always compared Ret Paladins to other melee classes, and in that regard they fall short. No interrupt, no snare, no healing debuff etc. etc. I'm sure you've heard it all before. After a few games however, I can see how Paladins can still play support as Ret, and the things that make Holy so strong are still there.

- Azreal, 70 Paladin, Death & Taxes, Korgath

Febuary 5, 2008:

By the way, I started Raiding as Ret, it's completely viable.

- Azreal, 70 Paladin, Death & Taxes, Korgath

All teasing aside, this is great to see. Perhaps it will convince more guilds to give a Retribution paladin a trial. For better or worse, the high end guilds do hold a lot of sway in the raiding community, and D&T are among the very top.

I feel like posting a thread to the paladin forums. I'm pretty sure I could get a 10-page flame-war going.


  1. Great to see something like that.

    And yeah, definately post it on the WoW boards! :D

  2. Our retadin is usually at par with other melee in Black Temple, so we're not complaining. Of course, this retadin will do emergency healing when necessary, offtanks Infernals at Anatheron and AoE tanks the trash waves at Hyjal.

  3. I just wanna see a big change in 2.4 for us....

    The gear will be a nice upgrade, but we need a 3rd isntant attack - something that will negate the need for Windfury...

    Maybe a "Crusader Crusader Strike" or something silly like that! lol!

  4. The biggest problem I have seen with ret paladins is unless they have windfury they put out crappy dps compaired to rogue/fury warriors. They do put out the dps when they have windfury

  5. People have suggested adding an interrupt and 2 second silence to Crusader Strike, to make it similar to Earth Shock - however, as it is our main spammable attack, I cannot withhold while waiting to use it to interrupt a heal. Perhaps if the interrupt/silence was connected to Judgement, or if CS placed some sort of stacking Judgement or debuff on the target.

    Retribution is strong in Arena - especially 3v3 - Warrior, Druid, and Ret Pally is almost on par with RMP. The Druid obviously supports the Warrior well, but the Druid is high-nigh un-kill-able with BoF and BoP on him. Ret Pallies who spam Cleanse and use their Blessings at the right times will find they bring much more to their teams than damage.

  6. I wonder, if they will finally backfix S1 and S2 itemization in 2.4 (remove that Spell Damage) to more match what S3 Ret set is currently---if that will make "Spec Ret" even more popular instead of feeling like an outcast.

    A fully geared S3 Ret Pally is absolutely vicious with the right lineup.

  7. Funny.
    I just figured out why those Korgath pre-mades I see every-so-often in my battle group are so killer...

  8. Sorry for the double-post, but a couple of things just kept nagging at me.

    First of all, what exactly is "viable"?

    In a game with nine classes, each with three talent specs, some will obviously be better than others.
    Blizz has tried to keep somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors PvP 'balance', and now the Alliance and Horde have equal access to the same classes.
    And in the endgame, the various raid boss fights call for a variety of class-specific abilities and talents within the "trinity" of tank-DPS-heals.
    It is not possible that everyone can be "best" -- but where is the line of "viability"?

    Second, wouldn't *any* class / spec with access to full T6 / S3 gear be viable? :)

    I mean, how does one measure "viability" when one is in the very best gear available in the game? (I mean, how can one *not* dominate PvP when one out-gears most everyone else?)
    And how does that relate to Average Jane, who scrapes together what gear she can?

    Dare I ask whether there is a "player skill" element in the "viability" equation? :)

  9. I cannot speak for Azreal, but to me "viable" means there isn't an obvious replacement. That there isn't another class/spec combination that could replace the slot in question and obviously make the raid perform better.

    For example, Subtlety Rogues are generally considered non-viable because you could just replace them with a Combat Rogue, and the raid would be better off for all intents and purposes.

    As for player skill, it's assumed that all players have the same level of skill. It goes without saying that it's better to have a good Subtlety rogue than a bad Combat rogue. We're basically comparing the two class/specs as if played by two equally skilled players.

    The other thing is that skilled players tend to gravitate towards the good specs. If you're a good rogue, you want to do as much damage as possible, to be as effective as possible. Thus you choose the spec that allows you to shine the most.

    As for gear, you have to remember that Azreal is competing against the top PvP'ers or the other DPS in D&T, who are just as geared as he is. He's comparing himself to other T6/S3 characters, not you and me in T4/T5.

  10. It is funny that so many take this guys opinion as something valuable even though he was perfectly happy to spout that Ret was not at all viable before he had even bothered to test it.

    I see a valuable lesson in not just assuming that because someone is in a big guild they know what they are talking about.

  11. Its true that with Windfury up we do insane damage and when we've got it I've been top DPS!

    Its funny how 1 tiny little buff can make such a BIG difference.

    Even without it I wouldnt say my dps is rubbish though. Regardless of the fact that i dont top the DPS meters.

    Once people realise that paladins are viable in Raids then the animosity towards us can finally be binned.

  12. I'm wondering if you could link the post where this is said? I searched for it, but had no luck.

  13. nagmos, they're all comments Azreal posted to this site over the last couple months. Just look at some of the older posts (the one about Shadow Priests has a lot of them).

  14. I think you may be forgetting something.

    World of Warcraft Client Patch 2.3.2 (1/8/2008)


    * Crusader Strike (Retribution) now causes 110% of weapon damage and no longer gains any bonus from spell damage.
    * Sanctified Judgements (Retribution) now returns 80% of the Seal's mana cost, increased from 50%.

    The comments were valid for the time in which they were made.

  15. Nice to see this kind of acknowledgment for ret. There are three warr/druid/ret teams tearing up our battlegroup at the moment (one is currently second), and I was pretty happy I could still swing 2000 with my ret pally with a ret/disc priest/rogue setup, even though it is comparatively weaker. I expected 2.3/2.32 would more or less balance ret in pve, but seeing it succeed now in highly competitive pvp is a real treat.

    -Agrippina/Messallina, Perenolde

  16. In my eyes, a retribution paladin brings more to the raid that just 'leetDeePeeEss'. A retribution paladin strenghens the entire raid.

    When rogues and warlocks can buff and off-heal, then I will no longer consider the ret paladin viable.

  17. "I wonder, if they will finally backfix S1 and S2 itemization in 2.4 (remove that Spell Damage) to more match what S3 Ret set is currently---if that will make "Spec Ret" even more popular instead of feeling like an outcast."

    Well, from what I'm seeing in 2.4, they're removing the spell damage alright... but all they're doing is replacing it with crit rating ~_~ I'm sure you've seen the pages and pages of complaints about it still lacking resilience in at least 3 different forums.

  18. "When rogues and warlocks can buff and off-heal, then I will no longer consider the ret paladin viable."

    You don't bring a retribution paladin for off-healing, you bring them for blessings, judgement of crusader, crusader strike, and (least of all) imp sanctity aura.