Thursday, August 21, 2008

WotLK Beta: Vengeance Nerf

Vengeance has been the core defining talent for the Retribution tree since the beginning. It has been nerfed in the latest Beta patch. It was reduced from 15% damage to 10% damage.

In the same patch, Warriors got the following talent:
Wrecking Crew
Requires 45 points in Arms.
Your melee critical hits have a 100% chance to enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 15% for 12 seconds.

There are some *really* upset paladins on the WoW forums.

Edit: Latest joke on the forums, courtesy of Skye of Hellscream:

Q: You know why Vengeance got nerfed right?

A: Duh. Vengeance got Nerfed because the talent was too similar to Wrecking Crew and had to be changed to preserve class uniqueness. Obviously.


  1. In the latest patch Paladins are now broken.

    No Judgements work at all. Holy Concentration Aura been changed i can't remember what it said at this point either. Blood Elf Arcane Torrent don't work.

    I say a bit of stuff got screwed up in the latest build in the patch.

  2. Eh, I don't know - paladin damage is totally out of control and undeniably broken in beta at the moment, this seems like a pretty small thing.

    And you don't think warriors need that talent? I don't play one myself, but it seems to me like deep arms needs all the help it can get right now!

  3. Out of control? From what I've read, as far as the sustained dps is concerned (which is what Vengeance is all about) we're about par for the course. Not the best, not 30% worse like in live. Just solid.

    Hell, even our burst isn't in the realms of silly like some class/specs.

  4. Not all Paladins do DPS, one spec of three of our class tree does.

    Many always keep refering to Paladins in general as if we all do DPS. It's much better to refer to the spec when talking about which does what whether it's the Healing, Tanking or DPS spec.

    We all do different things in I've class as a whole.

  5. Except WC is 20 points deeper and only lasts 12 seconds compared to 30. Oh and Holy damage igorning armor isn't a big deal I guess?

  6. Given how often your average warrior or paladin crits an ability the duration difference doesn't mean a whole lot except whilst grinding.

    That Holy Damage ignores armour is a fair point, but the disparity will be mitigated depending on the amount of armour penetration existing in Raids, likely to be quite high. Paladin holy damage accounts for only about 30% of total DPS, and that total DPS is a lower baseline than that of even Arms Warriors.

    WC is an extremely powerful talent for Warrior Arms DPS. It is, on the face of it, better than Paladins current equivalent in the same Tier and better than Vengeance. That it is 20points deeper than Vegeance is nice, but does that mean you'd advocate buffing Crusader Strike with a Mortal Strike effect, given that it's 10 pts deeper than MS and does less damage?

  7. Hunters are more than capable of putting out equal or higher DPS at lower levels as beta ret pallys, and on live right now Frost Mages can shatter combo harder than a trinket/wings/stun JoC hits for. So no, ret pallys are not "overpowered", they are simply competitive for the first time.

    I still find it humorous that a blue can write up a long post about how "kitty druids should be competitive with a Rogue" but the second Ret Pallys are able to do the same its "overpowered".

    Blizzard needs to do class balance at level 80 internally so that these little 12 year olds who got killed by a ret pally shut up.

  8. I think your ignoring a lot of factors if you don't see ret doing equal dps to pure dps classes as a problem.

    Welcome to pve arms warrior land where you are balaned around increasing other people's DPS.

  9. Centuri:
    you're not only one.

    Surv hunter, retpala, feralkitty, enh shaman, shadow priest, uh oh

    and they should've kept Vengeance as it is imo... retadin class defining ability on 3 classes now?

  10. As a Ret pally, I find it funny that one less stack (5%) and the sky is falling, and WotLK far away? People just need to calm down, realize it isn't finished, and just provide feedback (once judgements are fixed anyway ^.^) as things happen.

  11. Ehm, just realized, DK's (dark) Vengeance stacks to three, not 2

    GG xD

  12. Now, I can't remember or seem to be able to find it. Is Vengeance considered a Magic effect? If it is, then it counters out my first comment.

    Anyway, assuming that this change was intentional (which was called into question in the other post), I can actually see 2 reasons why Vengeance would be considered "balanced" to have a lower bonus.

    1) Wrecking Crew, as an Enrage, can now be dispelled by Tranqualizing Shot (and similar effects). Though like I mentioned before, I don't remember if Vengeance is Magic, and thus can also be dispelled.

    2) Wrecking Crew, as an Enrage, causes the Warrior to also take extra damage from effects such as Rend.

  13. Vengeance is magic, and can be Dispelled (by Tranq shot, no less) or Purged.

    Actually, Warriors have a new ability (Enraged Assault) that consumes an Enrage for extra attack or something as well, so Wrecking Crew has extra uses beyond the straight damage bonus.

  14. Vengeance is a Magic Buff, and hence can be dispelled (by more than one class in fact, and also by Tranq Shot as it has inherited the magic dispell from Arcane Shot).

    I'm not aware of the intricacies of how Enrage mechanics interact with Rend. Have you got a link I can have a look at to get up to speed with it?

  15. I figured it was the case, but I couldn't find it saying that where I was looking.

    Regarding Rend, one of the current changes being made to it in Wrath is that if the target of Rend becomes Enraged, then they take quadruple damage from Rend (see: ). I know I saw a few more abilities that did similar effects, but I can't seem to find them now. Maybe those abilities were changed back.

  16. "I think your ignoring a lot of factors if you don't see ret doing equal dps to pure dps classes as a problem.

    Welcome to pve arms warrior land where you are balaned around increasing other people's DPS."

    Hi, I'm a ret paladin in a 4/6 sunwell guild, I know why I'm there.

    My question is not "should ret pallys compete with rogues". I ask why there are blue posts stating they want KITTY DRUIDS (yes folks, a hybrid) competing with Rogues but ret paladins can not. Answer that.

  17. Ive been reading this forum for a long time now but this is my first post.

    The Vengeance nerf is a response by Blizzard to the overpowered dps we have now. However currently the overpowered dps is due to the scaling of judgements with AP and SP. This originally led the 20k crit JoC's and still persists now with SoV which curently on beta is a better dps seal than either blood or command. Like a previous poster said they have nerfed our sustained damage while elaving the crazycrits as they are. I fully expect them to fix this.