Monday, October 10, 2011

New Need Before Greed Issue

My praise for the new Need/Greed system may have been premature. It's been pointed out that there is a moderate flaw in the system

Consider the case of a player who rolls Need on everything she can, regardless of what she is currently using. Under the new system, that player will prevent a off-spec character from getting the item. Under the old system, the off-spec character at least has a chance of getting the item.

So it's a trade-off, I guess. Under the old system, a rogue player has a chance--it's not guaranteed--to take main-spec items from you. Under the new system, a rogue player can guarantee that you won't get any off-spec items at all.

Of course, there is a work-around. If you really want gear of a certain role, queue as that role. And guaranteeing the main-spec items you need is probably the more optimal outcome.


  1. I'd prefer to compete with the Main specs in the run than off specs. Its a flaw, but I can't see any way of having a perfect system when you're dealing with player greed.

  2. It's still early in the PTR, so we'll see if they tweak it.

  3. Honestly, Main specs always beating Off spec rolls is probably the best system for the Looking For Raid tool.

    It will be the easy mode raid format, if you want gear for tanking/dps/healing play as that roll.

    While picking up offspec gear now and again is nice, there is a ladder for gearing, and Step one shouldn't be "Expect to get gear for your off spec while running as your main in a match finder tool"

  4. Will be interesting to see how they work out issues for shared gear between caster/healer and tank/dps (i. e. agility leather, which is tanking gear for bear and dps gear for rogue and cat).

  5. They could add something like whenever you won an item you get -30 for your next rolls.

  6. @Hirun: rogues are not the problem: agi/leather is ALWAYS for their main spec.

    The problem is casters and feral druids, which, at least for now, would be able to roll on a 2nd spec even when playing their 1st one.

  7. @Helistar: Rogues seem to be a problem PRECISELY BECAUSE their MS gear is AGI leather. But, actually, it is the gear itself, not the class, that is the problem. Why?

    Consider plate-wearing classes. None of the tanking roles/specs should have to complete with DPS roles/specs for gear. The existence of tanking-oriented secondary stats makes distribution easy. If it has dodge or parry, it goes to tank; if not, it is DPS. When hit/expertise actually mattered to a tank, you could have made an argument that those secondary stats could go either way (tank or DPS), but given the current state of affairs, it would be deemed a DPS piece. (NOTE: Someone should suggest that plate DPS should be able to roll on plate tank gear if a feral druid is tanking, if that hasn't already been incorporated in the code)

    Now, think about feral druid vs. rogue. There are no longer secondary stats to differentiate the role for which the gear is intended. (I'd love for someone to dig up the arguments that were used to homogenize leather gear) As it is now, AGI leather is both tank gear AND DPS gear.

    And that is a problem, curable only by reintroducing dodge to fleabag leather.

    Spirit has a similar problem - you shouldn't exclude a shadow priest from rolling +SPI cloth gear, because the spec was redesigned to convert spirit to hit. But, the flipside is that is they end up with more opportunities to roll, compared to mages and warlocks who get NO value from spirit. (Also, in-class feuding between resto druids and boomkin, and resto and elemental shaman as both healing and DPS utilize hit - but at least there aren't other whole classes to worry about with mail and leather)

    The homogenization of gear, by removing dodge from leather and by introducing talents to convert spirit to hit, seems to be the ultimate root cause. Yes, it saved Blizzard a lot of time by eliminating the need to create additional gear for larger loot tables to satisfy all class/spec combos, but it also introduced unintended limitations that are now manifesting themselves as they try to tweak the Need Before Greed system.


  8. Having read the precursor entry about the new NvG system, it really does come down to tagging item "roles" appropriately, which shines the light on lack of tanking stats on feral leather and Spirit-to-Hit talents blurring the line between healing and DPSing.

  9. Right, Dancingblade. It's actually an interesting predicament. If loot is role-specific, then that leads to wastage. It's like getting more spellpower plate after the Holy paladins have gotten their pieces. It goes straight to disenchant.

    Role-overlap means less wastage, less drops that no one wants, but more conflicts over priority.

    Someone should suggest that plate DPS should be able to roll on plate tank gear if a feral druid is tanking, if that hasn't already been incorporated in the code

    It already works like this. Offspec can still roll need on gear. It's just that main spec gets automatic priority. So the fury warrior would roll Need on tanking gear, and the feral druid could only roll Greed, and the fury warrior would win the item.

    If there had been a protection paladin, and the protection paladin rolled Need, the protection paladin would automatically win the item over the fury warrior.

  10. I like the new format for rolling on loot. Main speck +100 points works for me. Remember , once the first month or two goes by , rolling on offspeck will be easier to win on.

  11. @Dancingblade: the problem is not DPS classes competing with tanks, it's people in one role being able to use the +100 bonus for their second role. A rogue should always have +100 when rolling on agi/leather, since it's main spec gear to him. The problem is a tank druid being able to roll with +100 on stuff he never plans to use for tanking, but for his 2nd cat spec.

    The same problem happens, as you correctly say, for resto/elemental shaman, balance/resto druid and heal/shadow priest.

    I guess it's "wait and see" to know if it'll be a big problem. Up to now in LFD it's been annoying to have people rolling for off-spec, but not game-breaking.