The first time, I just wanted to raid. The second time, I wanted to raid and have stable loot rules (i.e. no changes in the middle of a run). Next time, I wanted to raid, have stable loot rules, and a stable leadership structure. And so on.
I thought I'd outline what my ideal guild would look like. I think I probably won't be able to find it, because the vision has gotten a little too precise, but it's an ideal. My ideal guild would:
- Raid Three Days a Week - I don't really want to raid for most of the week. I could probably do four nights, but I think that that a guild should raid one less day than it is fully capable. So ideally I'd only like to raid two or three times a week for about 3-4 hours. Also, I'd like raids that started somewhere between 5:30 pm PST to 7:00 pm PST.
- Move Fast - The raid moves at a quick pace. No long pauses, no wasting time. Fast and efficient. Starts exactly on time and finishes exactly on time.
- Focus on New Content - Of three days, one day should be for farming, and two days should be for wiping on new bosses. People really over-estimate the value of gear. Time and practice are worth far more. Gear comes as you do stuff.
- Have a Relatively Fair Loot System - Kind of honestly, I don't really care what system is used anymore. As long as it's fast, and not too biased, it's good enough. Frankly, I think I'd prefer a "Need for Main Set, Greed for Off-Set, Pass Otherwise" system, just because it would be the fastest system and we could move on to the next pull immediately.
- Have Friendly, Competent People - Not asking that everyone be super-hardcore (in fact, it probably would be better if they weren't) but people should show up when they say they will show up. They should know how to play their class, maybe not to the absolute cutting edge, but enough to avoid the standard mistakes. They don't need to have the absolute best, most expensive gear, but what they do have should be enchanted and gemmed properly.
Also, they should pay attention during raids. I understand real life sometimes calls you away, but I disapprove of people who watch TV while raiding. If something is important enough that you do it while raiding, it is important enough for you to stop raiding and step out until you have finished. - Not Mock Casuals - I like the hardcore, and I don't make any "no life" or similar comments. Being good at WoW is as much of an accomplishment as most of us are likely to achieve. Very few of us will become Nobel Prize winners or brain surgeons.
But this is one habit of the hardcore that I absolutely despise, the mocking of those weaker than themselves. Things like laughing at a random paladin in Shattrath behind her back in guild chat because she's using Spirit gems. Would it really have been so hard to whisper her and help her select better gems instead?
The strong should help the weak (or, at the very least, ignore them). Mocking the weak only betrays insecurity, and frankly makes the person someone that I do not want to play with. The worst part about this habit is that you cannot say anything to convince them to stop unless you are a better player, as your opinion carries no weight otherwise.
I am tired of adolescent male bravado, and would like a guild free of it.
Anyways, that's my ideal guild. I wonder how close I can get.
Welcome to my guild! lol. Sounds exactly what the idealism we have four our own. We're not hardcore, and we're not really casual either. We purposely let people have enough time to have fun with the new content while leveling. We're not starting raiding until Mid january. We'll be doing 2 raiding days per week, and 1 spare day to do whatever fun instance we feel like. Completely optional for the 3rd day. We used to do 25 man content, but we got burned and about 1/2 of our core raiders left to pursue their own selfish interests. We'll be concentrating on 10 man content and we'll do 25 if we have the people who would be willing to be there and commit to the days we raid. We like to have fun, but we get down to business when it comes to learning content. We never push on to more content on nights unless we feel that 1 more attempt would get that boss down etc. Never pushed a raid further than 30 mins after our "quittin' time". Its pretty much the reason why I'm in the guild I am and have been for about 1.5 years now. Its a happy medium. The only thing I would like is to have started in the content a little earlier, which is why I found a few good friends outside of the guild to jump into random naxx, sartharion, archevon and malygos runs :).
ReplyDeleteThat sounds perfect. If you find it, let me know--I'll be hot on your tails!
ReplyDeleteUgh. I wish guilds were like that on my server. The guilds on my server are either filled with terrible players or filled with elitists.
ReplyDeleteLikewise. It's what I pretty much run with my guild. It's mostly real life mates plus a good handful of buddies we've met on WoW.
ReplyDeleteI created the guild just before BC when I first started playing and when most of us hit 70 we decided to split and do our own thing. A few of the casual guys just went off into scrub guilds for a bit of fun and a few of us went into raiding guilds. I moved off into one of the top flight guilds on my faction and completed all of the content bar Sunwell (which I wasn't interested in).
Just before 3.0 came out I called it quits with my raiding guild (who fit your description almost perfectly, 3 nights a week, solid progresseion -ranked top5 for most of BC-, no stuffing around) and thanked them for all the fun. I enjoyed my 1 year stint with them, I learned heaps that's for sure.
I remade my old guild and all the original members came back and even a few that I had forgotten about saw me a few weeks later and asked if they too could come back. When Wrath hit we decided to just hit the 10man content as a guild and we're loving it. We're a really tight knit group. 3/4 of the guild have known each other for most of our wow lives.
I've yet to find a guild I am completely happy with - it comes down to what your willing to compromise on - and what your not.
ReplyDeleteI envy those a little who found home. I find pieces of home, and sometimes a little hell.
I also like the three day raiding schedule, even 4 nights a week staring at the computer screen for hours unending is alot during a raid. If your 'playing' you can get up from the chair and do other things / communicate with loved ones, spend time with kids if your in a raid till midnight 4 days a week - where does your life go?
Your desires match pretty closely with the culture we foster within our guild. Roll an alt on Feathermoon and stop by and say hi some time :)
ReplyDeleteThe main difference I see is that we only do 1 mandatory progression raid per week. However all your other desires are, as I say, pretty on the money with how we roll as far as I can see.
"Need for Main Set, Greed for Off-Set, Pass Otherwise" was the loot system we used in ZA, and it worked great.
ReplyDeleteI really started to realize why exactly I dislike 25-mans: because they require a complicated loot system to keep everyone happy. I'm looking forward to NOT raiding 25-mans this time around because I don't have to.
Our guild is kinda' like that (Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday @ 7:30) with Sunday being used for farming. They don't allow anyone under 18, so you lose that adolescent male bravado. We also have our own loot system, KDKP (a system and mod written by one of the founders), that is based off of different tiers of loot as well as lifetime total DKP when it comes to a tie.
ReplyDeleteAlbeit, there can be some long pauses, but no one likes those, so they are kept to a minimum.
Since all the people are 18+, they are generally competent with the Officers being all 40+ (I think).
I know that everyone else has talked about their guild, but there's mine, and good luck in finding one of your own!
I've been looking for that type of guild for almost three years now but still haven't found it. If I want players who know how to play their class and are competitive, I end up in a guild raiding 4 or 5 nights a week. If I want a guild that raids 2 or 3 nights a week, I end up in some friends and family guild where half the players don’t have a clue or just don’t care.
ReplyDeleteThis is *exactly* my guild. They're freaking awesome. If you were a horde feral druid, I'd tell ya to send me an email. :)
ReplyDeleteExactly, Blimp.
ReplyDeleteI my experience, you go towards hardcore and you lose #1 and #6. You go towards casual and #2-5 suffer, especially #2 and #3.
I think I was in your ideal guild for a short time. Then it died and I was left with nothing but a voice in my head saying "I told you he was an ass and you should have argued against him." Damn moonkin.
ReplyDeleteAs others have said, these seem to end up being exclusive, at least partially. The problem is that there are the extremes: harcore jerks who care nothing about anything except WoW and their epics while on the other end are the people who don't care enough about anything and are nearly worthless, except that they care enough to complain about not getting raid spots or gear.
I think a lot of people want to be in the middle, and here's where the problem comes up. Most people (of those that want to raid) want to be with competent people, not bad, not awe-inspiring great either. Unfortunately people tend to see things relatively and also boost themselves. It's a classic 90% of drivers being above average. Bad people 'should' end up with bad people, but then the guild is bad so they quit because who wants a bad guild. Good people end up with good people, but as progress continues there's more pressure to put in more effort, until eventually they have to either go more hardcore or drop out.
Creating the middle is very hard. Maybe it's impossible. I suppose the closest was my old guild which was a core of friends who were good, connected to a wider circle of average players. Maybe they held us back a little, but since we controlled the guild, we could set standards. Besides, it was worth the tradeoff. I loved that guild.
My current is nice too, though I must admit I rarely raid with them due to my schedule, so I can't say much. They're nice people and a couple friends are in the guild.
I pretty much share the same sentiments except for the 'fast' part. A lot of things can happen and RL always take precedence over raiding for me, delays can and will happen.
ReplyDeleteMy ideal guild would be a bunch of real life friends and not some people who'd shout on anyone at the drop of a hat on vent.
I guess I'm casual like that, don't hate me :P
I don't know if it was a unique experience or what, but I've been in 3 different casual raiding guilds mostly made of friends and family, and each one of them has been full of exceptional players. I find that this is because the better players aren't as afraid or cautious about speaking their mind to those who don't perform as well because they are familiar with the person. In my current guild the same suit follows. I do my best to help my guildies perform more effectively, and that in turn improves the quality of the guild.
ReplyDeleteEchoing that this sounds like my guild, so don't give up hope on finding one that matches your ideals. Our loot distribution might not work for you, depending on your outlook, as we use loot council. Not exactly fast, but we trust it to be fair and it balances reward for effort and reward for guild progression pretty well. But everything else we do is almost an exact match for your criteria, so I'm sure there are people out there who share your outlook on the game.
ReplyDeleteThing is, guilds like that probably are pretty happy with where they are. For my guild, we never had much drama or turnover because we ARE competent and make progress, and the people in the guild don't overvalue loot. Sure, we've lost people who felt they were being slighted, or wanted to get into WotLK raiding faster (we're starting in January). But we're still pretty healthy, and almost all of the departures were amicable. As a result, we've never recruited or advertised much. So you may have your work cut out for you finding guilds like you want, they may be very low profile.
It would be wonderful if a guild like that existed. Have you ever thought of making your own? You're already a fairly popular blogger, so it would probably take off pretty well.
ReplyDeleteIn "Not Mock Casuals" section you mention that the strong should guide the weak. I am all for that. However, let me pose this to you. My friend is a warlock and already having a high level warlock I thought it would be beneficial for her to gain some of my knowledge of the class. She didn't take kindly to my help, she wanted to learn on her own. So now I tend to not do either for some people wish to learn for themselves or do not appreciate unsolicited advice. Be wary of this but don't be a dick.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to help them. You just have to not mock them. It's taking that extra step to make fun of them that I dislike.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds... just phenomenal.
ReplyDelete/wistful sigh
When youve found this guild, can you tell me please. I'm looking for the same thing :D
ReplyDeleteThe real question is could you find an organization in real life similar to all the ideals you have for a guild? Also, what is "ideal" for you is not necessarily "ideal" for the next person.
ReplyDeleteI am in the best alliance guild on our server and we have only one thing left to clear, sart 3 drakes, and I have to say we only raid 2 nights a week atm and we are very good. Our loot structure with the inclusion of selfless members allows for ideal loot distribution considering we use dkp.
Nevertheless, it is quite difficult to foster or expect an environment of ideal and mature nature when the population of this virtual world consists of such various age groups.
The funniest thing I ever read was your post about how someone found the perfect hardcore/casual balance. . .
ReplyDeleteBest of luck with your search. . .
This should be what a guild strives for. I hope you find it, or as close to it as you can. and is good advice for GM's.
ReplyDeletePerhaps its time you started a guild Coriel. Based on these ideals I am certain people would flock to it, but in order to keep it that way you would have to be picky about who to accept and who not to accept.
ReplyDeleteI'd go back to Skywall to join.
sounds like what I have been after for a while, I have gone from softcore to hardcore and in the end what I learned is that it is not how many nights you raid but how quickly your raid can go from 25 mistakes to under the success threshold. I saw the struggles of nihlium and sk, and the equivalent on my own server, And I know that with the right team any of the bosses could be downed faster.
ReplyDeleteI just want a guild with people willing to take the time and effort to make however often we raid a success. Last night I pugged OS, both10 and 25 man groups could have downed at least 1 additional drake. The talent is out there it just needs someone to focus it.
Three 25-man progression nights a week for 3-4 hours each (Fri-Sun); 10-mans at various times rest of the week at your leisure; mature crowd (very few under 18 admitted), with many couples/families who play; no DKP - roll for main, then for off-spec, then alt. Currently recruiting Ret/Holy Paladins, Mages, Shaman, Priests, Resto Druids (though, if we like the person and their app, we'll admit other classes/specs, too). We don't demand people play a CERTAIN spec all the time - though perhaps occasionally for specific encounters (ex: HKM mage-tank, Leotheras lock-tank), and even then we look for volunteers.
ReplyDeleteRoll an alt on Steamwheedle Cartel (US-RP/PvE), and strike up a conversation! #3 Alliance progression, while being casual - we make it work =)
And note: No amount of participation is mandatory - EVER. Sign up if you want to go, don't sign up if you don't. VERY simple =)
ReplyDeleteJezrael, your guild sounds really cool. But one day a week seems too little. If you have to sit out, you don't get to raid that week at all.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm not really an RP person.
Metrogamer, fast is more complex than that. If someone needs to afk for 5 min, they afk and the raid continues without them. But still, most people don't need to afk as much as they do (except parents with young children).
As for RL taking precedence over gaming, the people you game with are also real people. If you wouldn't ditch a RL friend for reason X, you shouldn't ditch your raid for reason X.
I'd just like to thank you for writing such an interesting blog, post after post. I read a lot, but the content has to be good to hold my attention. I find myself coming back to your blog on a regular basis. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and thoughts. You do a GREAT job!
ReplyDeleteTake Care
The cynical side of me says "Doesn't exist, you'll never find it."
ReplyDeleteThe realist side of me says "It's probably there, but you won't find it."
My guild shoots for pretty much what you've outlined here as well, but I won't lie because we fall short.
We try to help the 'weak' by pointing them in the direction of blogs and websites to get better. We assist with enchants, gems, etc. We inform them of buffs, rotations, etc.
Yet we're pretty quick to mock them when they ask us the same question for the umpteenth time. And our patience then runs thin and rude things do get said. Like offering, for a modest fee, to make heroic keys for Wrath after we explained an hour ago that there are none.
Point is there will always be players that test the ultimate limits of officers' patience. There will always be players whose egos are too large or too fragile. Too many personalities not to be able to find that 'perfect' guild.
I do believe you can get close. Good luck!
We used a loot system like what you describe. And then I toyed around with some kind of DKP system.
ReplyDeleteWhat we finally settled on, and like quite a bit, is:
Master looter + /random
No irrevocable decisions are made until the loot master makes them happen. Everyone has plenty of time to discuss who gets what. The loot master can call out the people who get priority on an item (tank plate goes to the paladin, not to my DPS DK) so that everyone knows who's supposed to be rolling.
We only do 5 man content at this point, though we have the numbers to do 10 man stuff. But it worked in Kara as well.
Perhaps this only works because everyone more or less knows everyone else at this point, or because people trust me particularly (as I'm usually the loot master). I dunno. But it sure as hell beats bookkeeping.
Dang it!
ReplyDeleteI've contemplated resubbing for two weeks. I've even reinstalled WoW.
If you find a guild like this or start your own post a guild recruitment link.
I can't resist much longer.
If you have enough contacts/friends on your server to form one, you should consider starting your own guild. You don't even have to be the guild leader if you link up with someone you trust to do a good job. All it takes in Wrath is to find like 12 people to have a fun raiding time, and branch from there. Or shop around and transfer, there are lots of differences between realms, some just have more depth. It sounds to me like the problem could be Skywall, not sure why you went back unless you have friends there. There is no fate but what we make.
ReplyDeleteVery nice set of ideals. Think I'll take this and re-post on our guild's forums if that's ok (crediting appropriately ofc)
ReplyDelete"I am tired of adolescent male bravado" - well, you aint gonna get rid of it too quickly, its endemic to our gender, I'm afraid. Adult males have a more sophisticated version of it, but at its core, its the same male ego.
ReplyDeleteWe have one guy in our guild like that atm. He's the highest dps consistently, the best geared player (from another guild), and tends to stay alive well etc etc in fights. But I deliberately dont invite him to my groups because of his superior attitude.
Personally, I find it repulsive, and it causes other players to be far less than their best. I hope he gets kicked :) and I will not be shy in letting other people know why I'm not choosing him for a run.
If you're guild leaders dont make decisions based on these sorts of considerations too, your runs are going to be a lot more painful and unsuccessful.
I've been an avid reader of your blog for quite a while, and I think you might be very happy in my guild, Sleepless Knights on Cenarion Circle. We are going to be focusing primarily on 10-man content, and while we have a laid-back attitude, our players are all talented, know their classes well and come to raids prepared. Please check out our forums at www.sleeplessknights.cc/forum. My handle there is Phaedro if you have any questions at all. Thanks for BoK!
ReplyDeleteI think such ideals are of a guild most would like to be apart of myself included.
ReplyDeleteFinding such a guild though it may exist is what is and would be most elusive.