Over the holidays, Blizzard floated the idea of introducing an item which can be used to give a month's subscription, and allow that item to be sold in-game. Essentially taking Eve Online's PLEX and applying it to WoW.
I think this is a bad idea.
I think this is similar to Diablo 3's Auction House. There the problem was with third-party trading, and Blizzard introduced the AH to combat scams. That worked, but ended up warping the game even farther. WoW PLEX would be similar. It would be introduced to combat Real Money Transfers from sketchy sites. But it does this by turning players into RMTers, by warping their incentives.
You can see this in Eve Online. Eve has a significant problem with scamming, lotteries, multiboxing and similar shenanigans. I believe this is because PLEX helps incentivize these actions, not just among the illegal third parties, but for regular players.
A lot of Eve partisans will say that PLEX has been good for Eve. Truthfully, I am not so sure. I think PLEX has masked a lot of problems with Eve, especially on the resource production side. Problems which would have been exposed and fixed a lot earlier without the bandaid of PLEX.
As well, I don't believe that it is good for the game to have one segment of stronger players play for free at the expense of other weaker players. Right now, the playing field is relatively equal. WoW rests on a broad base of subscribers, and we are all relatively equal. The necessary monetary support is divorced from the in-game universe.
PLEX for WoW is a bad idea. It warps the incentives for a significant fraction of the playerbase, and creates a real divide between those players who free-ride, and those who pay. I urge Blizzard to reject this idea.
Edit: I posted this in the comments. Hopefully it makes the parallel with D3 and WoW more clear.
D2 had a problem with scammers. D3 introduced a mechanic (the Auction House) to combat that problem. That mechanic warped the incentives for the larger playerbase. The cure was worse than the disease.
WoW has a problem with 3rd party RMT. WoW is proposing to introduce a mechanic (WoW PLEX) to combat that problem. That mechanic will warp the incentives for the larger playerbase. The cure will be worse than the disease.
I think this is similar to Diablo 3's Auction House. There the problem was with third-party trading, and Blizzard introduced the AH to combat scams. That worked, but ended up warping the game even farther.
ReplyDeleteLegendaries did not drop that often in Diablo 3 when the auction house was available. Since then Blizzard has bestowed us with Loot 2.0.
WoW PLEX would be similar. It would be introduced to combat Real Money Transfers from sketchy sites. But it does this by turning players into RMTers, by warping their incentives.
Those, who resort to RMT, will now use the WOWPLEX. Their incentives will be the same.
You can see this in Eve Online. Eve has a significant problem with scamming, lotteries, multiboxing and similar shenanigans. I believe this is because PLEX helps incentivize these actions, not just among the illegal third parties, but for regular players.
Eve has a different set of rules regarding what is allowed in the game. Multiboxing is allowed in WoW. The rest is not.
As well, I don't believe that it is good for the game to have one segment of stronger players play for free at the expense of other weaker players. Right now, the playing field is relatively equal. WoW rests on a broad base of subscribers, and we are all relatively equal. The necessary monetary support is divorced from the in-game universe.
Is it envy or what? People can choose to use WOWPLEX or pay the subscription as they did in the past. How do you think the strong players will exploit the weak ones? If the weak ones want something from strong players and they want to pay for it, then it looks like symbiosis to me. And WOWPLEX or gold will not be the only sources of the means to enjoy the game. Good gear comes from effort! if it is good gear that you want. The effort may be time, skill, or help from your friends. All the other instruments for making your characters stronger will still be open. A hell of a lot of gear and other items are Bind on Pickup. In Eve Online virtually anything can be pulled out from your ship and resold.
PLEX for WoW is a bad idea. It warps the incentives for a significant fraction of the playerbase, and creates a real divide between those players who free-ride, and those who pay. I urge Blizzard to reject this idea.
At times if you look at the trade chat, you will see that a significant bunch of morons play the game. It seems as if they pay for a chat program!
As one of the hardworking AH players I like the idea of being able to play for free. When I craft items and put them on AH, I like to believe that I provide a service to the community. Without me those items would not be available at all because few people have the no longer available patterns or the patience to mill tens of thousands of herbs or to raise multiple alts to get all the professions and be self-sufficient. When I sell common items and undercut other players, my profit margin is 5-10%. Isn't it good value for your gold?
And while you are speculating what will happen when WOWPLEX is introduced, consider the events after Blizzard allowed buying some specific BOE pet from the store and selling it for gold. A pet is of course less useful in comparison with game time but I have a feeling WOWPLEX will not ruin the game because all the other options will still be available.
I agree with you, Rohan, because Blizz isn't going to do something that would jeopardize their cash flow, so they'll either tweak it to their advantage or compensate for it by unleashing a full fledged (F2P style) in-game store.
ReplyDeleteI for one would probably use the WoW Plex system. In contrast to ten years ago, I now have less time, but more money.
ReplyDeleteI could spend my limited game time farming, crafting and/or camping the AH to make gold that is needed much more this expansion, or I could use my real world money to buy something I can trade for gold and then spend my time playing other aspects of the game.
@redbeard - their cash flow won't be affected. The same number of subscriptions will be sold. PLEX doesn't add ISK or game time to the economy, it creates a legal channel for players to exchange one for the other.
ReplyDelete@rohan - I disagree that PLEX is exploitive. People without the time, skill, or interest in making gold in-game will be able to effectively pay other players to make gold for them. I don't see who is harmed in this transaction except those who are left out - players who lack both the in-game and real world resources to take part. They are disadvantaged not by PLEX but by inequalities in the distribution of wealth, a problem somewhat beyond Blizzard's purview.
While I agree in general with your analysis, the 'problems' you list in EVE did not come about because of PLEX. They came about because EVE is EVE and is ok with being that.
ReplyDeleteDiablo III's AH issues did not stem from the real money aspect whatsoever. They stemmed from the fact that it's a loot oriented game and via the AH you could crowdsource your loot drops. It's why they axed both the real money and the gold AH's.
ReplyDeleteI don't follow that it has anything to do with the WoWPlex scenario.
I didn't say D3's issues had anything to do with Real Money.
ReplyDeleteD2 had a problem with scammers. D3 introduced a mechanic (the Auction House) to combat that problem. That mechanic warped the incentives for the larger playerbase. The cure was worse than the disease.
WoW has a problem with 3rd party RMT. WoW is proposing to introduce a mechanic (WoW PLEX) to combat that problem. That mechanic will warp the incentives for the larger playerbase. The cure will be worse than the disease.
That's the parallel I'm going for.
Rohan I agree that if you look at D3's AH as a means to combat scamming, the cure was definitely worse than the disease. But like Talarian, I think the problem was that it completely destroyed the loot-finding aspect of a game which was really 100% about loot-finding. I don't think there were any problems with the D3 RMAH that would not have existed if it had only ever been a gold AH.
ReplyDeleteI don't really understand what you are disagreeing with. I agree with you and Talarian that the Real Money part of the D2 AH is not important. The Auction House part is what went wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think my issue is that I don't understand how it follows is because you state this, but don't elaborate effectively: "That mechanic will warp the incentives for the larger playerbase"
ReplyDeleteHow will it warp the incentives? Why do you believe it will warp the incentives? Why/how does it create a real divide between "free-riders" and those who pay?
Basically, from my perspective, you're not taking the argument deep enough. It feels too much like hand-waving that change is bad, and your parallel to the D3 AH is poor because folks had called out exactly how the AH would cause issues in a loot game like D3 when it was originally announced. The real solution that Blizzard fell upon was to basically remove the economy nearly completely.
WoW already has an established Auction House mechanic, and it's per-server rather than the entire playerbase, so you have a far less issue with crowd-sourcing. Most loot is soulbound, so you can't really Pay to Win (though you can pay to get an initial leg up). In fact, WoW already has an RMT-style mechanic (the bear pet, iirc). I disagree that the two are as easily comparable.
I don't think the AH was the problem with D3. It was the fact that drop rates were reduced so the AH wouldn't be flooded with millions of the same legendaries.
ReplyDeleteI hated the AH because it felt like that was the ONLY way to get the items I wanted.
As far as WoW Plex goes, I don't see how incentives change at all. Players with lots of time and farm a lot save $15 a month. Players with more cash than money can now spend an extra $15 or more to get mounts/pets/enchants/etc that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to obtain.
Gold in WoW isn't the same as ISK in Eve at all. ISK is a global currency for EVERYTHING. In WoW, gold is far less useful as you only *need* enough to gem/enchant/repair your gear.
I think that you're over-estimating the importance of gold in WoW. In D3 you could basically buy the best gear in the game for real money. In EvE, the economics makes up a signficant part of the gameplay.
ReplyDeleteIn WoW, gold is a convenience - sure, you can buy BoEs which are one tier below the best in the game (okay, and a very few which are the best, but supply of those is going to be much lower than what you can get through actually raiding Mythic), but you can't really use it to actually influence progression.
Plex in WoW is pretty much just a time vs money calculations. I'm probably going to sell tokens for gold, because I don't find AH gold-making that interesting, and I bill an hourly rate such that I can probably make real money about 20x quicker than playing the AH, but there are plenty of people who actively enjoy gold-making, and will relish the chance to then get to skip their weekly sub, and there are others who are just time-rich and cash poor. It's nothing to do with me being weaker and letting stronger players freeload at my expense; it's just that different people have different priorities.
@Talarian: When Rohan says "Basically, from my perspective, you're not taking the argument deep enough. It feels too much like hand-waving that change is bad, and your parallel to the D3 AH is poor because folks had called out exactly how the AH would cause issues in a loot game like D3 when it was originally announced. The real solution that Blizzard fell upon was to basically remove the economy nearly completely.", I don't believe he has any more depth to his argument than that. It's an appeal to emotion or morality, and it's logically faulty. PLEX in EVE didn't change the incentive to play for anyone; people plexing accounts are able to broaden or maintain differing playstyles they have interests in without having to expend real world currency each month to do so. Further, his arguments that allowing others to pay for accounts in exchange for currency results in "The necessary monetary support [being] divorced from the in-game universe." is such a flawed, meaningless statement that it roundly detracts from his arguments.
ReplyDelete@Rohan, the real issue D3 had with the AH implementation was that the drop rate accompanying it was garbage. Of the thousands of drops in the game, a very small percentage of them were worth using at all, so prices for the worthwhile items quickly became inflated. In fact, it's exactly like D2 in that regard, except the trade market was legitimized to reduce if not eliminate players being scammed. To say that situation was "worse than the disease" is ridiculously hyperbolic, and frankly, no situation like that exists in WoW.
Further, your comparisons to EVE are all false equivalence. Most of them are falsehoods; most notably multiboxing(allowed), lotteries(also allowed), scams(allowed), and general shenanigans(encouraged). Further, while ISK in EVE may seem like a major requirement in the game, the reality is that ISK is of generally little importance in the grand scheme of things. The only currency in EVE that truly matters is time, which can't be bought nor sold at any price.
@JThelen I don't necessarily agree or disagree with his statement about WoWPlex being bad, I just don't have enough insight into why Rohan believes that will be the case. It's quite possible to have your intuition about something be correct, but it requires closer examination (keep asking why until you can't ask why anymore).
ReplyDeleteAs to divorcing real-world money from in-game mechanics, I think that's not a bad thing. It's immersion-breaking, like the 4th wall of video games. However, that ship already sailed ages ago with the cash shop, buying level boosts, etc. also, as I mentioned, this isn't the first time they've sold something in the cash shop that you can sell to other players with in-game currency.
I know you are not a fan of the game, but WildStar has an exchange that allow players to sell one month game time CREDDs that they have paid real money for.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to work, but WildStar is much lower in population than WoW.
For me, it was great buying up 6 months of game time with what I stashed. What surprises me is that players are essentially paying 20 dollars cash for an amount of in game currency that I would think a reasonable end game player could earn over the course of 1 week.
I think you are drawing a poor conclusion by lumping the behavior in EvE to PLEX.
ReplyDeletePLEX in EvE was added to combat RMT. The negative behaviors you have described were associated with the game before PLEX.
What incentiveses bad behavior in EvE is the allowed behavior and full looting.
There are parallels between D3 auction house, 'wow plex,' and EvE online, but I do not think that the comparisons you made were entirely accurate.
That being said, I would still agree that it probably isn't a good idea on Blizard's part.
Actualy Plex is intresting in EVE
ReplyDeleteIt allows for someone with real life cash to get isk (in game currency in eveonline).
It allows for someone with alot of ingame cash to get gametime for ingame cash.
CCP (Eve:s developer) makes good money on PLEX. because no PLEX on the market is never bought.
For Eve online it did put a big cap on the gold vendors .. no longer was it useful to sell gold online when the gold/$ was so low.
right now in eve i can buy 2x Plex for 1 600 000 000 isk 1.6B
i can buy 2 PLEX for 34.95$ thus the isk/$ ratio is 45.78M isk/$
IT will not make the gold vendors go away but it will allow trades of playtime.
Eve also got another nice thing you can sell Character for ingame currency to others. (Characters not Accounts ..)
Basicly they are steeming the tide of illegal activities by introducing legal options.
It's fine in my book.