Thursday, September 04, 2008

On Redoubt

Modulok writes in the comments to the last post:
Redoubt is not a fun talent at all. All it does it make Shield Spec worth 8 points instead of 3. Remember that there are no crushing blows in wrath so your whole reasoning for taking it is moot. This is the definition of bloat. If you really like it don't make it mandatory for tanks to take it for shield spec. Alternatively make it worth one talent point or something. Prot forums have been whining about this for ages.

I think a lot of paladins are looking at Redoubt through the lens of TBC, and not WotLK. In TBC, because we had to reach uncrushable, paladins piled on lots and lots of Avoidance. This greatly reduced--and eventually obsoleted--the value of Redoubt.

WotLK looks to be different. There seems to be a lot less Avoidance gear. There's even a rumor that dodge and parry rating will see non-linear scaling, like Armor. If you have a lot less Avoidance, then Redoubt still does a lot for you, increasing your block rating significantly. As well, with the new focus on Strength, and the fact that 2 Str = 1 Block Value, we have the potential to mitigate significant amounts of damage through blocking.

Now, I don't know how useful Redoubt will be. It might turn out to be useless. It all depends on how much Avoidance is available in raid content. If Sunwell is any guide--remember that Blizzard had to introduce Sunwell Radiance to keep Avoidance in check--Blizzard will be looking to significantly reduce the amount of Avoidance raid tanks possess.


  1. I think a lot of people are also forgetting that not every prot paladin player in the world is a hardcore player that main tanks raids every week. Personally I'm a pretty casual player, I've never been in a decent guild (mainly due to timezone issues) and rarely even have a chance to run instances. At level 63 my gear is mainly quest rewards with a little bit of padding from drops and purchases off the auction house. If I didn't have redoubt, I'd be slaughtered. It was even more important at earlier levels too. I'm all for making it less random, or giving it a more useful effect in addition to the block %, or changing the mechanics so that it scales better with good gear, but taking it away isn't a good solution. Unlink it from shield specialisation.

  2. Wrath is changing WoW into an almost totally different game. Same goals, but the game play seems that it will be significantly different.

  3. My first thought is that perhaps Redoubt is slated as a "leveling" talent (like remorseless attacks for a rogue), you spec it until you get enough avoidance to use those points somewhere else... Of course it would depend on where they stick it in the tree)

  4. I'm at lvl 76 in Beta. I'm not wearing any of my tBC Epic pieces from Kara/Badge/ZA.

    All my WotLK Beta main Armor piece slots for armor gear is Blue with either quest or BS crafted pieces. Has lots of Stamina/Strength/Defense Rating. A shoulder piece i picked up from doing a Nexus Quest had some Dodge/Block Value on it. Outside of that the only stat i've seeing on Tank gear Questing so far is just Dodge Rating. Only Block Rating I have right now is that which i get from Defense Rating on all my gear.

    So Redoubt right now has some use leveling as Protection especially when all the quests I do I try to do them AoEing everything to make it faster. Shield Spec aren't much value either as my Shield is the only piece of Shield Block Value gear I'm wearing as well currently.

    I've not seen or picked up any Questing Rewards so far with gear piece with Block Rating leveling up through Quests.

  5. Forgot to mention, allot of the gear i'm seeing so far is lower in Avoidance than compared to TBC gear. However not sure how that will be at 80.

  6. I have to disagree with you Rohan, redoubt is useless period.

    Its an rng effect, this means several things:

    Raid Tanks
    a) Boss fights, due to low attack speeds, low proc chance this cannot be counted on as mitigation, as such its useless for us.

    b) trash, again its not a reliable proc ergo you gear for not having it.

    In a casual situation it probably doesn't really matter.

    Its essentially a junk talent at all times, if it was a fixed increase in block (10,20 heck 30% :P) it would be excellent, as a 10% chance, it sucks majorly.

  7. Has there been any news on paladin offensive abilities since the beta nerf of Art of War?
    The news of us being OP has pretty much quieted down and now the focus of that conversation seems to be on Titans Grip. I just want to know are we still in the conversation when it comes to improved DPS?

  8. Paladin DPS has definitely improved, but scaling Judgement DPS and Seals now proccing on instant attacks account for at least.

    Results were coloured by the sheer number of Paladins in Tier 6 or equivalent gear jumping straight in at 70, gear which won't be replaced for at least another 6-7 levels. Even my Pally is running 1900AP and 30% Crit unbuffed, and she's almost undergeared by comparison. This has skewed the pitch somewhat, but as people have got to lvl 80 the amount of damage Paladins do hasn't scaled quite as well as Hitpoints have.

    Broadly speaking, I'd say our DPS was good without being overpowered compared to other DPS specc'd classes. Our burst damage is higher than average at least partially due to SoC dealing double damage to stunned targets, but I don't want to say it's over the top because we simply haven't seen what other classes are capable of. If nothing else Mages, Deathknights and Warriors are capable of at least as high Burst damage for PvP purposes, it's just that Paladins are slightly more reliable in applying it.

    There's still (hopefully) an awful lot to come. With the second pass to Ret talents due up next there should be some more news soon.

  9. Im guessing that those that are calling redoubt a prot leveling spec haven't actually leveled as prot (Galo aside of course). From levels 1-22 Devotion aura is by far your best bet since you dont get consecration till 20. Improved devo aura is actually king since armor at low levels is really great.

    Redoubt on the other hand is an unreliable proc that sometimes goes off on the mobs last hit etc.. its only really good in AOE situations which are not realistic due to weak gear itemization at that level. Short story, redoubt is not a good skill to take when leveling 1-40 or so. After that you take it for shield spec once again.

    If you are talking about the 70-80 leveling process it is still not good. Right now you can get spades of block rating on gear. Blizz practically throws it at you. Even Galo when he leveled kept his tank gear till 74 or so since the crafted gear and quest rewards weren't as good. By the time you want more block rating you will have surpassed the need for 5 points in redoubt. 2ndin has it right. I'm just glad that they moved it out of first tier at the very least so that you can take divine strength and anticipation and possibly forgo shield spec until you are a raid tank again. Best solution, make it a static value of increasing block rating and drop the silly proc.

  10. Thanks for the insight Zebra. You have quelled my concerns.

  11. Redoubt has been changed in the latest build on WotLK. Redoubt moved to tier 2. Increases your block value by 30% and damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 30%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks." Simply put Blizzard merged it with Shield Specialization.