I was reading the Crowfall comments on Massively OP, and I was struck by the attitude of the more strident PvE players. There was a lot of complaining that the game was PvP, and it wasn't PvE. At this point, are PvE players becoming overly entitled?
Let's look at the major MMOs currently running:
Primarily PvE - WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV, Rift, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, TSW, EQ2, Neverwinter, LotRO
Primarily PvP - Eve Online
It's not even close. There's one major MMO which is focused on PvP. Pretty much everything else is focused on PvE. It seems really uncharitable of PvE players to feel aggrieved that a new game is focused on a different audience.
Of course new game devs are going to try and make PvP games. That's the under-served market. It's the market where you don't have to compete with the behemoths.
I'm a primarily PvE player. I have to admit that there's a ton of options for me. My biggest problem is choosing the MMOs I don't want to play.
I kind of feel for the PvP players. If you want an MMO where PvP is more than a sideshow, you're basically limited to Eve. And if spreadsheets in space isn't your thing, you're out of luck.
For PvE players to complain about the current situation is just being churlish.
For an average social person, a PvP-er is worse than a child abuser and deserves absolutely no games at all.
ReplyDeleteYou should see the amount of crying some players in EVE can do over trivial losses.
You might find this somewhat amusing -- ran into someone into said both (in this order)
ReplyDelete"Furthermore, if a player gives up for dying, screw them. Their loss of $10 and no concern of mine. I'm not going to hand hold some one and kiss their boo boo's all better. If after shelling out money (while there are countless free carebare games out there), they decide that it's too hard to play, tough for them."
And
"I've only tried WoW once on a 14 day pass, where I was constantly followed around by a higher level character and repeatedly killed and than the in game equivalent of sexually assaulted. I would not recommend that game to anyone."
From here: http://forum.bioware.com/topic/543632-alangara-new-dawn-persistent-world/page-2#entry18678030
He went straight from saying that new players shouldn't have their hands held and if they got frustrated dying over and over again then tough luck...right into complaining that he, as a new player, joined a WoW PvP server and got ganked over and over.
Apparently repeatedly dying in PvE is fine, but repeatedly dying in PvP is harassment.
For the record, I think WoW PvP servers are fairly stupid since it's usually more about ganking people who can't fight back or going after solo people at max level in a group. But the difference in attitude for that guy is rather funny.
Almost sounds like Gevlon might be at least half right!
I don't know, I see lots of players choose to play the "primarily PvE" games you listed and then complain that these games don't pay enough attention to PvP. People just like to complain, no matter their focus.
ReplyDeletethere are a couple other pvp based mmo's out there, Darkfall and Mortal online being among them but their vision seems far more constrained. I think this makes it even more maddening though, we can see and taste what we enjoy but its just further disappointment.
ReplyDeleteI do get a little of the complaints by the pve crew though, yes there has been a lot in recent times but there all mostly the same haha. The needs to br greater difference there as well or people get bored and look for better.
I also find it funny how many of the upcoming kickstarter games are PvP as well, or at least pvp focused. But then it isn't just that, there is a whole range of interesting projects out there if people take the time to look. I think shroud of avatar will make many people rather happy.
Also, social pvp player here and amazingly not a child molester... WOOOO.. although calling people that does tend to paint you with the same brush as the people you claim to abhor
I am terrible at PvP. My reactions are far too slow. Nonetheless, I love virtual worlds with open-world PvP. It makes the world come alive. That's why I loved Darkfall, even though I was rubbish - the tension, the fear, the elation. These feelings are never felt in a PvE world. Even raiding in Draenor, while I feel elation when I get down a new boss, I never feel the tension and fear that counterpoint it.
ReplyDeleteI hope we'll be able to experience it in Crowfall.
"For the record, I think WoW PvP servers are fairly stupid since it's usually more about ganking people who can't fight back or going after solo people at max level in a group. But the difference in attitude for that guy is rather funny."
ReplyDeleteBalkoth, you're absolutely right about that. It's a big reason why I'm not playing WoW any more, because I got tired of watching the relentless invasions of max level Hordies in Honor Hold and other places. When "PvP" boils down to "beat up on people who can't resist", then what's the point?
It happens in every game that focuses on one or the other, the side that isn't the main focus wants to know why there isn't more of their content. There are a lot of players in various niches in the genre who believe they should always be the focus.
ReplyDeleteI would love to see a sandbox that is not pvp based. That said I do not begrudge the existence of PVP only games, other than when I am trying to explain to my friends trying to get me interested in them... why I just don't have much interest. As far as PVE games go... I have WoW, Rift, FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR, TSW and more than I could even possibly remember to write here that support my preferred method of play.
ReplyDeleteI went through this with the release of ArcheAge, because everything about that game screamed something that would be perfect for me... other than the PVP aspect. I huffed a bit and puffed a bit, largely because I had so many people coming at me trying to tell me how amazing the game was. Finally I came to the realization that not every game has to be "for me". I am interested to see how Crowfall progresses, but I am also perfectly fine with coming down to a decision of "not for me" as well.
@Balkoth, to be fair, if you die in PvE, you're usually doing something wrong. Barring stuff like Sons of Arugal in Vanilla Silverpine Forest, the "norm" for PvE is to win unless you make a mistake.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, the "norm" for world PvP is to get destroyed by someone with a much higher level. Fair fights are unusual in world PvP. When a fair fight does happen, it's pretty awesome. But it very rarely happens.
So I think there is some validity to that point-of-view. There's a difference between losing because you made a mistake, and losing because you had no chance to win.
"It's a big reason why I'm not playing WoW any more, because I got tired of watching the relentless invasions of max level Hordies in Honor Hold and other places."
ReplyDeleteYou could just play on a PvE server? I only played on a PvP realm during the end of Vanilla and most of BC -- been on PvE beyond that. Can still PvP in BGs, rated BGs, arenas, and stuff like Ashran if/when I want to PvP.
"So I think there is some validity to that point-of-view. There's a difference between losing because you made a mistake, and losing because you had no chance to win."
To be clear, my issue is the fact that he deliberately set himself up in a position to be ganked by playing on a PvP server and then concluded that WoW wasn't worth playing as a result.
And if you're about to say "Well, maybe he didn't know any better" then that was my entire point in that conversation -- that new players who lack knowledge can be put off by a bad experience initially. And he was insisting that wasn't something to worry about.
@Balkoth--
ReplyDeleteI was playing on a PvE server, but it doesn't stop another faction from camping in a hub and slaughtering all of the questgivers/NPCs. And, of course, Outland has those PvP areas such as The Stadium that flag lowbies for PvP and are an open invitation for gankers.
Ah, I suppose on the taking over the town, just never seen that happen on a PvE server.
ReplyDeleteThe Outland areas for PvP didn't flag you automatically, but yes, trying to do it at 61 or whatever usually got you ganked by 70s.
@Balkoth It happens more now that everything, but the current expansion (and SW/Org) are cross-realm zones. Anecdotally, for me, it isn't all the time, but easily half the time I need to visit an area like the Outland starter zone.
ReplyDeleteIt's probably a combination of wanting the zone buffs for alts and a desire to feel overpowered, especially among the dedicated Horde players. When your side is viewed as the 'badassess' of PvP it isn't a big step to want to go prove that by disrupting the opposite faction.
The ganking in Outland has gotten really bad since about mid-Mists once cross realms really kicked in. The server my Ally main was on (Ysera-US) got linked in with 10:1 Horde heavy A-52 US.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a pretty sight.
Honestly, there's a reason that EVE's the only PvP focused game left, while there's a ton of WoW-clone PvE games out there. PvP focused games simply don't work fiscally, because there's not enough demand to keep them going.
ReplyDeleteShould that breed a sense of elitism in players who primarily prefer PvE? Probably not, but I don't see that ever stopping what is seemingly the majority of the market complaining when what is, by all appearances, a very niche game launches.
Well. The reason pvp games are scarce is because pvp games are unpopular. The grand majority of successful games had focused on pve
ReplyDelete